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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6679118" data-attributes="member: 6799649">The RAW makes sense to me, but okay, let's discuss 'surprise' outside of RAW.Not as the game understands 'surprised', which is defined as 'not noticing a threat'.The rules for initiative and what you can or cannot do in a turn do not determine surprise; it's the other way round: the rules for surprise affect what you can or cannot do on your turn.What does determine 'surprise' is whether or not you 'notice a threat'.My arguments here are perfectly consistent with the rules for 'surprise', and have the benefit of completely dealing with the questions regarding when it starts and ends. No counter explanation in this thread has shown any rules support. For example, it is not written that you cease to be surprised after your first turn, after the first round, after the first hit, or anything except 'you are surprised if you do not notice a threat', and 'the DM determines if a character or monster is surprised'.My arguments are also perfectly consistent with common sense. Conceptually, the effects of being surprised are not about being 'astonished' or any such synonym, and instead are all about whether you are ready and alert to face the immediate dangers, which you can only do if you realise that there is any danger!This is modelled in the rules by rolling Perception to notice the monsters, or rolling Insight to realise that your friend is about to attack you.It is not modelled by Initiative, which models how fast you react to danger once you've actually perceived it. Initiative does not model whether or not you perceive it!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 6679118, member: 6799649"] The RAW makes sense to me, but okay, let's discuss 'surprise' outside of RAW. Not as the game understands 'surprised', which is defined as 'not noticing a threat'. The rules for initiative and what you can or cannot do in a turn do not [I]determine[/I] surprise; it's the other way round: the rules for surprise affect what you can or cannot do on your turn. What [I]does[/I] determine 'surprise' is whether or not you 'notice a threat'. My arguments here are perfectly consistent with the rules for 'surprise', and have the benefit of completely dealing with the questions regarding when it starts and ends. No counter explanation in this thread has shown any rules support. For example, it is not written that you cease to be surprised after your first turn, after the first round, after the first hit, or anything except 'you are surprised if you do not notice a threat', and 'the DM determines if a character or monster is surprised'. My arguments are also perfectly consistent with common sense. Conceptually, the [I]effects[/I] of being surprised are not about being 'astonished' or any such synonym, and instead are all about whether you are ready and alert to face the immediate dangers, which you can only do if you realise that there [I]is[/I] any danger! This is modelled in the rules by rolling Perception to notice the monsters, or rolling Insight to realise that your friend is about to attack you. It is [b]not[/b] modelled by Initiative, which models how fast you react to danger once you've actually perceived it. Initiative does not model whether or not you perceive it! [/QUOTE]

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