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<blockquote data-quote="Ristamar" data-source="post: 6681480" data-attributes="member: 1207"><p>I'm actually not opposed to the surprise rules as they are written, especially as they pertain to a scenario where two groups unexpectedly bump into each other. I think they work in most cases.</p><p></p><p>My contention is with when I have to call for initiative to start combat in certain instances like the one I outlined above. Personally, I'd just let that assassin take the shot with surprise.</p><p></p><p>The transition from "combat" to "out of combat" can be nebulous, IMO, and certain scenarios just don't fit neatly into D&D's system. Even when they do fit into the system, they can lead to some odd results if you run them strictly by the book. Take a look at the scenario below...</p><p></p><p>-----------------------------------------------------------</p><p></p><p>Andrew the assassin, Biff the battle master, and Cory the (war) cleric are hiding out in the third story of an abandoned building in a large town. The setting sun can be seen through an open window, but there is still some hustle and bustle below in the streets. </p><p></p><p>Andrew spots the telltale markings of a town guard a few hundred yards down the road. The armor, the cloak, the standard issue halberd... even from this distance and at this time of day, he can spot one of the local authority. He recalls being thrown in prison last year in this same town for pickpocketing. Being a guy that holds a grudge against the establishment, Andrew decides that he's going to put his Sharpshooting assassin skills to use and put in arrow of the back of the guard.</p><p></p><p>Andrew draws his longbow. The group's earlier stealth check far exceeds the guards passive Perception score. Andrew's lips twitch with a wicked grin as he prepares to fire...</p><p></p><p><strong><CUE INITIATIVE></strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Andrew: 12</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Biff: 19</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Cory: 16</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Guard: 6</li> </ul><p></p><p><strong><ROUND 1></strong></p><p>Biff acts first but simply watches Andrew in anticipation. He, too, had a run in with the law here, so he has no qualms with a little revenge.</p><p></p><p>...but Cory, who acts next, decides that he isn't comfortable with this cold blooded assault! Cory casts <em>Hold Person</em> on Andrew, and Andrew fails his save.</p><p></p><p>Andrew stands as still as a statue, incapacitated by the spell. He rolls a saving throw, but fails again.</p><p></p><p>The unwitting guard continues to stroll down the road away from his would be assailants. He's enjoying the sunset as his watch is coming to an end. Also, he's apparently no longer surprised, but he's not sure what that means. </p><p></p><p><strong><ROUND 2></strong></p><p>Biff is having none of Cory's sudden moment of good conscience. He punches Cory dead in the face. While it doesn't do much damage, the blow does break Cory's concentration on the spell.</p><p></p><p>Cory madly lunges at Biff, forgetting about the guard, and grapples him.</p><p></p><p>Andrew snorts derisively as he realizes he's free of the spell, and then takes his shot at the guard... a hit! But wait, no 'Assassinate' damage for Andrew because the guard has already taken his turn in the initiative order! Sorry, Andrew, try to be quicker next time, or bring some friends with looser morals! </p><p></p><p>The guard abruptly stumbles forward as an arrow suddenly strikes him in the back. The shot nearly killed him, yet as he grimaces from the pain, he can't shake this strange feeling that he was incredibly fortunate... if he can just make it out of the streets before the unseen assailant(s) can loose another arrow.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ristamar, post: 6681480, member: 1207"] I'm actually not opposed to the surprise rules as they are written, especially as they pertain to a scenario where two groups unexpectedly bump into each other. I think they work in most cases. My contention is with when I have to call for initiative to start combat in certain instances like the one I outlined above. Personally, I'd just let that assassin take the shot with surprise. The transition from "combat" to "out of combat" can be nebulous, IMO, and certain scenarios just don't fit neatly into D&D's system. Even when they do fit into the system, they can lead to some odd results if you run them strictly by the book. Take a look at the scenario below... ----------------------------------------------------------- Andrew the assassin, Biff the battle master, and Cory the (war) cleric are hiding out in the third story of an abandoned building in a large town. The setting sun can be seen through an open window, but there is still some hustle and bustle below in the streets. Andrew spots the telltale markings of a town guard a few hundred yards down the road. The armor, the cloak, the standard issue halberd... even from this distance and at this time of day, he can spot one of the local authority. He recalls being thrown in prison last year in this same town for pickpocketing. Being a guy that holds a grudge against the establishment, Andrew decides that he's going to put his Sharpshooting assassin skills to use and put in arrow of the back of the guard. Andrew draws his longbow. The group's earlier stealth check far exceeds the guards passive Perception score. Andrew's lips twitch with a wicked grin as he prepares to fire... [B]<CUE INITIATIVE>[/B] [LIST] [*]Andrew: 12 [*]Biff: 19 [*]Cory: 16 [*]Guard: 6 [/LIST] [B]<ROUND 1>[/B] Biff acts first but simply watches Andrew in anticipation. He, too, had a run in with the law here, so he has no qualms with a little revenge. ...but Cory, who acts next, decides that he isn't comfortable with this cold blooded assault! Cory casts [I]Hold Person[/I] on Andrew, and Andrew fails his save. Andrew stands as still as a statue, incapacitated by the spell. He rolls a saving throw, but fails again. The unwitting guard continues to stroll down the road away from his would be assailants. He's enjoying the sunset as his watch is coming to an end. Also, he's apparently no longer surprised, but he's not sure what that means. [B]<ROUND 2>[/B] Biff is having none of Cory's sudden moment of good conscience. He punches Cory dead in the face. While it doesn't do much damage, the blow does break Cory's concentration on the spell. Cory madly lunges at Biff, forgetting about the guard, and grapples him. Andrew snorts derisively as he realizes he's free of the spell, and then takes his shot at the guard... a hit! But wait, no 'Assassinate' damage for Andrew because the guard has already taken his turn in the initiative order! Sorry, Andrew, try to be quicker next time, or bring some friends with looser morals! The guard abruptly stumbles forward as an arrow suddenly strikes him in the back. The shot nearly killed him, yet as he grimaces from the pain, he can't shake this strange feeling that he was incredibly fortunate... if he can just make it out of the streets before the unseen assailant(s) can loose another arrow. [/QUOTE]
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