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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6682501" data-attributes="member: 6787503">So that would be a "no" to my question, which leaves me feeling a bit confused since you just said that surprise is not limited to the start of combat, but can actually apply throughout combat. Now you seem to be saying that if you are "in combat", you can't be surprised at all. I don't know when else it would be relevant for someone to be surprised, unless you are meaning to draw a distinction between someone who is "in combat" and someone who is merely an unwitting participant in combat because that person's enemies have all not been noticed by that person. It seems to me that such a distinction is unnecessary, not to mention misleading, since the only direct effect of not noticing your enemies is being unable to move or act until the end of your first turn. This is what is called being surprised. If you continue to be unaware of your enemies past the end of your first turn there is no longer any effect.I wouldn't look to the text of Assassinate to define the effect of surprise. It only tells you what effect a successful attempt to Assassinate has on someone who is surprised. The surprised person is already feeling the full effect of being surprised whether they are assassinated or not.You defined "in combat" above as having noticed, or believing there is, a threat. I agree that having done so makes it so you cannot be surprised. It does not follow, however, that once you are surprised, noticing a threat will make you unsurprised. This would in fact contradict the rule that says that if you are surprised you can't take actions or move until your first turn is over, because if you start the encounter surprised, then notice a threat before the end of your turn, becoming thus unsurprised by your reading, you would suddenly be able to take actions and move on your turn. What then did it mean to have been surprised?No we can't, because it would mean you are both surprised (from the threat you didn't notice) and unsurprised (from the threat you have noticed since). I addressed this reading above, but I'd like to add that surprise is neither a condition nor an effect, per se. I believe it is best defined as the relationship between a cause (not noticing any threats at the start of the encounter) and an effect (being unable to move or act until after your first turn). A surprised creature is one to which both the cause and effect currently apply.This is why noticing a threat after you have been surprised cannot make you unsurprised. You remain surprised for the duration.Do you see how this is circular? "You are surprised for as long as you are surprised." Assassinate does not tell us what surprise is.You have the effect right. The cause is not surprise, however. The cause is being unaware of your opponents when surprise is determined, at the beginning of an encounter. A creature who is thus unaware, when combat begins, is surprised. A creature who suffers from the effect of that lack of awareness is surprised.Who is vulnerable to the assassin's auto-crits? Anyone who is surprised, right? But how do we know they are still currently surprised? Surely once having been unaware of their opponents doesn't make creatures permanently surprised. I know you aren't saying that. When the assassin strikes, however, the cause of surprise is most certainly in the past because surprise was determined at the beginning of the encounter, so the absence of the cause in the present does not negate the effects of surprise. They exist for a predetermined duration. A creature can be aware of his opponents and yet still be surprised because surprise is still in effect until the end of the creature's first turn. "Surprised" is not defined by an assassin's ability to auto-crit you, but rather the ability depends on the target being surprised.Yes, and welcome once again!</blockquote>

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