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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6682962" data-attributes="member: 6799649">There's a couple of things here. First, imagine that the combat has been raging for several rounds when you suddenly burst into a room whose inhabitants knew nothing about any combat. They could be surprised, because even though it is not the first turn of combat, it is their first turn of combat, therefore the effects of surprise for those guys is that they can't move or take an action on their first turn, and are vulnerable to auto-crits from Assassinate until they notice a threat (which should be fairly soon if the warriors burst in but may be a while if they snuck in).Second, 'surprised' has TWO effects:-* you are vulnerable to auto-crits from Assassinate all the while that you don't notice a threat, and are not vulnerable to auto-crits all the while that you do notice a threat. If you start combat surprised then you become 'un-surprised' when you notice a threat, but as soon as you notice a threat (whether at the start of combat or later) then you can't become surprised while that combat rages, i.e. while in combat time/initiative order* you may not move or take actions on YOUR first turn of this combat (whether or not your first turn is the first turn) and cannot take reactions until your first turn is over. Note that once your 'surprise' has mandated that you can't act etc. on your first turn, this remains the case whether or not you notice a threat before your first turn. If you start combat 'surprised', then notice a threat (because the attacker/assassin runs into the open) before your first turn, you still can't do anything on your first turn even though you are no longer surprised!Er...yeah, exactly! Assassinate doesn't define surprise, but it only works on someone who is surprised at the moment the attack hits. Therefore, one of the effects of 'surprise' it that you are vulnerable to Assassinate.As explained above, if you were surprised at the start of your first round of this combat, then you suffer the 'cannot act' penalty on your first turn, and that penalty has already been caused at that point. That 'cannot act' penalty doesn't go away if you notice a threat in the meantime; no rule says that! But you are only vulnerable to auto-crits if you are surprised (i.e. haven't noticed a threat) at the moment that attack hits you. Why? Because no rule says that 'being able to react' = 'no longer surprised', but 'surprised' does mean that the hit auto-crits if the attacker has the Assassinate ability.Yes, I'm stating the obvious. That doesn't make it untrue.No. Just because surprise was determined at the start doesn't mean it isn't true later also.'Haven't noticed a threat' = 'surprised. Therefore, if you have noticed a threat then then the condition for 'surprised' has not been met. Since the default condition of creatures is 'not surprised' then there is no excuse for applying those penalties.</blockquote>

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