Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="epithet" data-source="post: 6685871" data-attributes="member: 6796566">If the PC triest to use a reaction before his turn, "[Character] has his head up his ass and isn't completely aware of what's going on around him, since he was totally surprised. You aren't able to react to that."On the surprised PC's turn, "You were totally surprised by [event], so all you can do on your turn is to regain your bearings enough to react to whatever happens next."In the case of assassinate, that's simple: the assassin goes first. Exactly how the assassin goes first will depend on the narrative--we're gonna role play that out. It might be a held attack to strike at just the right moment, it might be something else, but in any case it will serve the narrative. There's no way for a target to "take a turn in the combat" before the assassin starts the combat with an attack.In the way you interpret the rules, combat begins when you roll initiative. That means, to you, that if nothing happens for the next 6 seconds and a hidden assassin remains hidden, he's nevertheless lost the benefit of surprise. When he does ultimately attack 12 seconds later, 2 turns "in combat" have already passed, the unsuspecting guard can move and act normally, and the assassin does not get an auto-crit. Instead of looking to the narrative to guide your ruling on surprise, you have parsed the rules down to what is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily restrictive framework within which you vest control over the surprise mechanic.From a narrative sense, even after initiative is rolled, as long as the assassin keeps making any necessary stealth checks and his target is not aware of any threat to the target's safety, then when the assassin strikes - whenever the assassin strikes - the target will be surprised. Your narrow interpretation of the rules means that an ambush is fundamentally impossible, because you've said you have to roll initiative when the ambushers see the targets, and if the ambushers wait until the targets are in position, holding their actions to launch arrows or roll boulders over the cliff when the PCs are just in the right spot, they have lost the mechanical benefit of surprise.Surprise has to be flexible to serve the narrative. For example, I've let a paladin use an athletics check instead of a stealth check to determine surprise, because the paladin was bursting forth from total concealment to make his attack. You've got to be able to say "Yeah, that could surprise the hell out of someone" and go with it, and not prioritize rules over rulings.</blockquote>

Verification