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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6688151" data-attributes="member: 6787503">Thanks!Agreed, just as if a PC was the target of an NPC assassin.I agree with the latter. I don't think anyone has suggested letting the assassin auto-crit without first determining whether the target is surprised, but if they have then I agree with your former point as well. I rather think that what has been suggested is to allow the assassin to attack after surprise has been determined, but before initiative is rolled, with the justification that the target is surprised. In this case the chance to notice the threat has been given, but not the chance to react quickly.Your use of the word "normal" here is problematic due to the disagreements we've had over the duration for which a creature is surprised. If you don't mind, I'll just point out where I disagree.I agree that it auto-crits, but disagree that the victim is no longer surprised. Until the end of its turn, the victim may be hit with more attacks and remain surprised. Once it has been determined that the victim is surprised, noticing a threat does not make it unsurprised.I agree that the attack gives away the assassin's location, but I disagree that it is not given away in the case of an arrow flying out a window. The rules are clear that an attack from hiding gives away the attacker's position both when the attack hits or when it misses. The granularity of an attack going unnoticed is not present and would represent an addition to the rules.This is the crux of our disagreement. How much sense does it make to say that the victim has fully recovered from being surprised and yet is unable to move or act?Even though he's been hit? I'm just not following the logic here. Being hit (or missed) by an attack gives the assassin's location away. At that point the victim knows there is an assassin.He doesn't need to use his reaction against something he doesn't know about because the timing of the reaction is predicated upon his being hit with an attack, at which point he does know about his attacker.Obviously, I disagree with this due to the victim's turn having passed.Once you've been hit or missed you do know about the assassin and his attack. That's what triggers the reaction. The timing of the reaction specifies that you can use it against the triggering attack when the attack hits you.Just to reiterate, once Shield is triggered the attack is no longer unknown.The victim actually can't use his reaction until he is hit with the attack. The rules simply don't support the level of granularity you are suggesting. You can add it if you want, but it isn't found in the rules.Not only does the victim see the attack coming, but being unsurprised means that he knows where the assassin is and from which direction the attack will come. The victim may cast Shield if the attack is a hit, but Uncanny Dodge has the added requirement that the attacker be seen, which presumably the assassin is not since he was just attempting to hide.Agreed, but due to the assassin remaining unseen, although not hidden, the victim makes his attack with disadvantage. Also, I'm still not sure what the purpose would be of allowing the assassin to attack before it is determined whether the victim is surprised or not, since the victim's surprise is where the assassin gains his ability to auto-crit from.</blockquote>

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