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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6689268" data-attributes="member: 6787503">What does this sort of surprise look like narratively? It seems to me that what you're describing here is a surprise that is either on or off. The idea, if I understand it correctly, is that once the target fails to notice the hiding assassin (or any accomplices the assassin may have as well), he becomes surprised, and that he stays surprised long enough for the assassin to attack him no matter how quickly he is otherwise able to react. It's as if the target has been marked with "surprise", making him vulnerable to the auto-crit, for having failed his Perception check. There is no indication here for how long he is marked in this way. It could conceivably be for the duration of the combat, or longer, but of course this doesn't make much narrative sense, and I don't think that is what you are saying. I find it notable, however, that you seem to conflate the narrative moment of surprise with the point at which surprise is determined. The Stealth/Perception contest, the outcome of which determines if the target is surprised, is better associated, for me, with the assassin's attempt to hide. The individual Stealth roll determines if the assassin is hidden, and if there are no other noticeable threats present, it is at that point that the DM knows that the target will begin the combat surprised. Narratively, at least for me, the target isn't actually surprised yet. He doesn't know there is an assassin and goes about his business accordingly. I'm sure you would narrate this in much the same way, because even though surprise has been determined, the moment of surprise has not yet occurred. As someone pointed out up-thread, it's a potential waiting to happen. At this point it depends on the attackers following through on their attack. If they change their minds, and the attack never happens, then the determination of surprise is of no value, because there will be no surprise.The target actually becomes surprised at the start of the combat, which I understand to mean the commencement of hostilities. Surprise is caused by the revelation of things that are unexpected. What surprises the target is the sudden onslaught of a battle he was not expecting just a moment ago. He is now surprised, which means that he is showing and/or feeling surprise, but to take advantage of this the assassin needs to attack the target before the surprise wears off. To score an auto-crit, the assassin needs to hit a creature that is surprised. There must be a point at which you don't get an auto-crit because you are hitting a creature that was once surprised, but now is no longer surprised.It really comes down to how you think a creature in this game shows surprise. How is a creature affected when attacked from hiding, unexpectedly? The creature is unable to move or act for a certain time. That is how it shows us that it is surprised. That is what "surprised" means, at least to me.</blockquote>

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