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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6697866" data-attributes="member: 6799649">There is 'surprised' itself, and then there are the effects of being surprised. There is a cause/effect relationship, which means that although the presence/absence of 'surprised' also means the presence/absence of the effects of surprise, the reverse is not true: the presence/absence of one or both of its effects does not determine the presence/absence of 'surprised'.The cause: 'surprised'.The effects:-a.) delays your first actions and reactions of the combat                  b.) while 'surprised' you are vulnerable to auto-crits from Assassinate.                  c.) some monster abilities apply when attacking surprised creatures.                  d.) possible other future stuff as yet to be determined.The cause and effect are related, but are different things. For example, if you are immune to the game effect 'surprised' (Weapon of Warning, Alert feat), then you are not affected by any of the effects. But if you are immune to, or can ignore, the effect of one specific effect of surprise, this does not let you ignore any of the other effects, nor does it mean that you are not 'surprised'. The barbarian ability of Feral Instinct allows you to ignore the delay to your actions (if you start by entering Rage), but it does not mean you are not 'surprised' if you Rage, and you are still vulnerable to auto-crits from Assassinate and possibly some monster abilities too.The effect of delaying when you can act/react is actually an instantaneous penalty that you take if you are surprised on your first turn of the combat. It is not an effect that switches on at one point then switches off at a later point; it does not have a duration. It is an instaneous effect, like 'paying a fine'.But we do know that 'surprised' itself does have a duration! How do we know? Because some of the effects of 'surprised' happen 'while you are surprised'. Take the Assassinate ability: if you attack a creature while it is surprised,  any hit is a critical hit. 'Surprised' itself must have a duration, but the effects of 'surprised' do not have or need a duration. The delay to your actions/reactions is an instantaneous effect, and your actions/reactions are delayed for the same amount of time whether or not you become 'unsurprised' before or after your first turn. Meanwhile, although the auto-crit is only valid during the duration of 'surprised', the auto-crit itself doesn't have a meaningful 'duration' at all, it simply applies to attacks that meet the criteria.Although we do know that 'surprised' must have a duration, it is annoying that they didn't spell it out for us. How many posts in this thread so far?I know that many people use the end of the surprised creature's first turn as the end of the duration of 'surprised', but there is no reason that your reaction speed should govern your awareness, no reason that the completion of the penalty for one of the effects of surprise should dictate the duration of any of the other effects, or of 'surprised' itself; like the tail wagging the dog.It seems to me that the best clue we have is what causes 'surprised' itself: 'not noticing a threat'. If the effects of 'surprised' happen because, RAW, you didn't notice a threat, then there is no logical reason to continue to apply them if and when you do notice a threat!</blockquote>

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