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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 6697900" data-attributes="member: 71699">For the sake of argument, let's accept that as true. We can see that there must be a delay between noticing a threat and ending surprise. Imagine a stealthed rogue who gets two attacks, gets surprise on two targets and beats both of their initiative scores. She moves 10' to target A and attacks them getting advantage and auto crit. Target B is looking right at target A and the rogue, but from a further 20' away. The rogue then moves 20' to target B and attacks. Does that rogue get advantage and auto crit on target B? If we say yes, then noticing a threat must be delayed. Unfortunately nothing advises us when to delay to. Let's also consider the possibility of a third actor - a friend of the targets' - who beat the rogues' initiative and shouts a warning. Do we say that such a warning counts as "noticing a threat" and ends surprise? Again if we say yes, then how did our rogue who came out of hiding to attack and needed to move first, reach her second target in time for surprise to still apply given that target saw her coming? I feel certain a rogue should be able to auto crit when using a melee weapon so I feel forced to say that "noticing a threat" to end surprise is delayed - but I don't know when to delay it to!? Let's put our versions of surprise side-by-side.Surprise version 1Applied when "not noticing a threat" and ended sometime (we don't know when) after "noticing a threat". Upon first being applied it launches two delay effects. The first delays reactions until the end of a combatant's first turn. The second delays actions until the start of a combatant's second turn. Until it ends, surprise version 1 acts as a handshake for other effects. For avoidance of doubt, ending surprise version 1 does not end the delay effects.Surprise version 2Applied when "not noticing a threat" and ended at the end of a combatant's first turn. While active, surprise version 2 prevents actions and reactions and acts as a handshake for other effects. Ending surprise version 2 ends all its effects.Surprise version 1 potentially cannot tell us when the handshake-effect ends. It begs the question because there isn't a mechanical motive for separating surprise and its delay/prevent effects, except in order for the  handshake-effect to continue past the expiry of those delay/prevent effects (although it potentially can end before them!?) A second logical objection is Occam's Razor. And then, it seems to ignore the RAW that "a character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter". Specifically, they can still be surprised under version 1 at the end of the encounter!</blockquote>

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