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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6699111" data-attributes="member: 6799649">Thanks for the opportunity to correct some mis-conceptions about 'version 1'.It kind of adds words, in that both of us are extrapolating things from what little is written, but version 1 doesn't actually break any of the written rules.Agreed. Just as much as version 2 adds the words "surprise ends for a creature when it can take reaction". Neither version is written, so that's not a valid way to choose between the two versions since they both add words.This is a mis-conception. A creature is surprised if it doesn't notice any threat, and is not surprised if it notices any threat!Imagine there are five threats. A creature is only surprised if he fails to notice every threat. As soon as he notices any single threat, then he is not surprised, considers himself to be under threat, is on the lookout for danger just as much as anyone who is not surprised.So you don't have to track every pair of assassins/victim possibilities. As soon as a creature notices a threat, any threat, it is not surprised.It's the other way round. Version 1 gives the correct weighting to the Skulker feat and ranged assassins, while version 2 lets melee assassins run 30-feet across open ground toward watching opponents and still treats them as oblivious to danger.Exactly! They never were synonymous. One was the cause, the other was one of the effects.Again, exactly this! The RAW does not tell us when surprise ends, so we must extrapolate from the words that are written.With 'version 1', creatures are surprised until they are not. Since surprise = 'not noticing a threat', creatures don't notice a threat until they do notice a threat. See how that makes sense?What a creatures reaction speed may be has no relevance before they even start reacting! A sprinter may have exceptional reaction to the starting pistol, but this is of no help if he never even hears the pistol fire!One way to notice a threat is to take damage from an attack. This means that being hit by that attack ends surprise for that creature, but only after that attack is resolved, so Assassinate auto-crit still works for that attack.There are many other ways to become aware of a threat. The DM's job is to make adjudications like this. Sometimes the creatures become aware of a threat early, and sometimes the never do. But the timing of their awareness of a threat is tied to their ability to sense things, as it should be. One of the problems with version 2 is that the awareness of danger is tied to a mechanic that has no relation to sensing things.</blockquote>

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