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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Assaying alternative rules for Success at a Cost and Degrees of Failure
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<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 8325190" data-attributes="member: 6704184"><p>I would say it's exactly the strength of the 5e system, but mileage always varies.</p><p></p><p>What is germaine to this discussion in this paragraph, though, is that part of the benefit of using degrees of success is putting things more into the hands of the player. I would never propose a system that makes dnd into a system that isn't a conversation*, but I think that the desired outcomes of the OP can be generated a little differently to put more of the resolution process into the player's hands.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, attacks are the only checks in 5e that would be difficult to switch over to a success ladder. How would that work? </p><p></p><p>You roll d20+mod, and on a total result of 2-9, you fail, but can still get something out of the action (fail forward). 10-19, you succeed with consequence or complication. 20+ is a total success. 20+ due to a natural 20 is success with a bonus. </p><p></p><p>What about more complex situations? This is where you can take a page from Xanathar's Guide, and apply it to a different part of the game. </p><p></p><p>[spoiler='Here is how "Crime" works as a downtime activity in XGtE']</p><p> </p><h3>Crime</h3><p></p><p>Sometimes it pays to be bad. This activity gives a character the chance to make some extra cash, at the risk of arrest.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Resources. A character must spend one week and at least 25 gp gathering information on potential targets before committing the intended crime.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Resolution. The character must make a series of checks, with the DC for all the checks chosen by the character according to the amount of profit sought from the crime.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The chosen DC can be 10, 15, 20, or 25. Successful completion of the crime yields a number of gold pieces, as shown on the Loot Value table.</p><p></p><p></p><p>To attempt a crime, the character makes three checks: Dexterity (<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Stealth" target="_blank">Stealth</a>), Dexterity using thieves’ tools, and the player’s choice of Intelligence (<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Investigation" target="_blank">Investigation</a>), Wisdom (<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Perception" target="_blank">Perception</a>), or Charisma (<a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Deception" target="_blank">Deception</a>).</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>If none of the checks are successful, the character is caught and jailed. The character must pay a fine equal to the profit the crime would have earned and must spend one week in jail for each 25 gp of the fine.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>If only one check is successful, the heist fails but the character escapes.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>If two checks are successful, the heist is a partial success, netting the character half the payout.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>If all three checks are successful, the character earns the full value of the loot.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><h4>Loot Value</h4><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>DC</th><th>Value</th></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>50 gp, robbery of a struggling merchant</td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td>100 gp, robbery of a prosperous merchant</td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td>200 gp, robbery of a noble</td></tr><tr><td>25</td><td>1,000 gp, robbery of one of the richest figures in town</td></tr></table><p></p><p>Complications. A life of crime is filled with complications. Roll on the Crime Complications table (or create a complication of your own) if the character succeeds on only one check. If the character’s rival is involved in crime or law enforcement, a complication ensues if the character succeeds on only two checks.</p><p></p><p></p><h4>Crime Complications</h4><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>d8</th><th>Complication</th></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>A bounty equal to your earnings is offered for information about your crime.*</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>An unknown person contacts you, threatening to reveal your crime if you don’t render a service.*</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>Your victim is financially ruined by your crime.</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>Someone who knows of your crime has been arrested on an unrelated matter.*</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Your loot is a single, easily identified item that you can’t fence in this region.</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>You robbed someone who was under a local crime lord’s protection, and who now wants revenge.</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Your victim calls in a favor from a guard, doubling the efforts to solve the case.</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>Your victim asks one of your adventuring companions to solve the crime.</td></tr></table><p></p><p>*Might involve a rival</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>Now, the three checks in the above do rely on the DC mechanic, but we can work around that, or we can embrace it, and just say, complex tasks use a different mechanic. </p><p></p><p>To work around it, we simply have to make three checks with three skills or other proficiencies, and compare number of successes, and then use degree of success to determine complications. Each check is with a particular skill, and skills can have known complications and consequences, and benefits, that the player can have printed out in front of them during play. So if you get a 9 on the investigate check to scout the scene, the complication isrelated to you not catching something. If you get a nat20 on the stealth check, you might find something you weren't even there to find, that is useful or profitable to you, or get in and out so smoothly that no one notices the theft for long enough that you can easily create a viable alibi and/or set up a rival to take the fall, etc.</p><p></p><p>In a fight, nat20 stealth might have a benefit option that is "you move at your full speed, and can dash, without penalty to stealth, while you are hidden." </p><p></p><p>The big thing is, the player knows the list of complications and benefits, and on a success gets to choose what happens. On a failure (even partial), the DM chooses, but the player still knows what the options are, and thus has some idea what to expect.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>*(even 4e features this dynamic, as the DM frames the world, the complexity of skill challenges, etc. My group also treats 4e skills as having descriptive examples of the types of things you can do, rather than them prescribing exactly what you can do in a relatively exhaustive list, but I can't recall if that is RAW or not)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 8325190, member: 6704184"] I would say it's exactly the strength of the 5e system, but mileage always varies. What is germaine to this discussion in this paragraph, though, is that part of the benefit of using degrees of success is putting things more into the hands of the player. I would never propose a system that makes dnd into a system that isn't a conversation*, but I think that the desired outcomes of the OP can be generated a little differently to put more of the resolution process into the player's hands. Firstly, attacks are the only checks in 5e that would be difficult to switch over to a success ladder. How would that work? You roll d20+mod, and on a total result of 2-9, you fail, but can still get something out of the action (fail forward). 10-19, you succeed with consequence or complication. 20+ is a total success. 20+ due to a natural 20 is success with a bonus. What about more complex situations? This is where you can take a page from Xanathar's Guide, and apply it to a different part of the game. [spoiler='Here is how "Crime" works as a downtime activity in XGtE'] [HEADING=2]Crime[/HEADING] Sometimes it pays to be bad. This activity gives a character the chance to make some extra cash, at the risk of arrest. Resources. A character must spend one week and at least 25 gp gathering information on potential targets before committing the intended crime. Resolution. The character must make a series of checks, with the DC for all the checks chosen by the character according to the amount of profit sought from the crime. The chosen DC can be 10, 15, 20, or 25. Successful completion of the crime yields a number of gold pieces, as shown on the Loot Value table. To attempt a crime, the character makes three checks: Dexterity ([URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Stealth']Stealth[/URL]), Dexterity using thieves’ tools, and the player’s choice of Intelligence ([URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Investigation']Investigation[/URL]), Wisdom ([URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Perception']Perception[/URL]), or Charisma ([URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Deception']Deception[/URL]). [B]If none of the checks are successful, the character is caught and jailed. The character must pay a fine equal to the profit the crime would have earned and must spend one week in jail for each 25 gp of the fine. If only one check is successful, the heist fails but the character escapes. If two checks are successful, the heist is a partial success, netting the character half the payout. If all three checks are successful, the character earns the full value of the loot.[/B] [HEADING=3]Loot Value[/HEADING] [TABLE] [TR] [TH]DC[/TH] [TH]Value[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]10[/TD] [TD]50 gp, robbery of a struggling merchant[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]15[/TD] [TD]100 gp, robbery of a prosperous merchant[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]20[/TD] [TD]200 gp, robbery of a noble[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]25[/TD] [TD]1,000 gp, robbery of one of the richest figures in town[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Complications. A life of crime is filled with complications. Roll on the Crime Complications table (or create a complication of your own) if the character succeeds on only one check. If the character’s rival is involved in crime or law enforcement, a complication ensues if the character succeeds on only two checks. [HEADING=3]Crime Complications[/HEADING] [TABLE] [TR] [TH]d8[/TH] [TH]Complication[/TH] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]A bounty equal to your earnings is offered for information about your crime.*[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD]An unknown person contacts you, threatening to reveal your crime if you don’t render a service.*[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD]Your victim is financially ruined by your crime.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD]Someone who knows of your crime has been arrested on an unrelated matter.*[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]Your loot is a single, easily identified item that you can’t fence in this region.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD]You robbed someone who was under a local crime lord’s protection, and who now wants revenge.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD]Your victim calls in a favor from a guard, doubling the efforts to solve the case.[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD]Your victim asks one of your adventuring companions to solve the crime.[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] *Might involve a rival [/spoiler] Now, the three checks in the above do rely on the DC mechanic, but we can work around that, or we can embrace it, and just say, complex tasks use a different mechanic. To work around it, we simply have to make three checks with three skills or other proficiencies, and compare number of successes, and then use degree of success to determine complications. Each check is with a particular skill, and skills can have known complications and consequences, and benefits, that the player can have printed out in front of them during play. So if you get a 9 on the investigate check to scout the scene, the complication isrelated to you not catching something. If you get a nat20 on the stealth check, you might find something you weren't even there to find, that is useful or profitable to you, or get in and out so smoothly that no one notices the theft for long enough that you can easily create a viable alibi and/or set up a rival to take the fall, etc. In a fight, nat20 stealth might have a benefit option that is "you move at your full speed, and can dash, without penalty to stealth, while you are hidden." The big thing is, the player knows the list of complications and benefits, and on a success gets to choose what happens. On a failure (even partial), the DM chooses, but the player still knows what the options are, and thus has some idea what to expect. *(even 4e features this dynamic, as the DM frames the world, the complexity of skill challenges, etc. My group also treats 4e skills as having descriptive examples of the types of things you can do, rather than them prescribing exactly what you can do in a relatively exhaustive list, but I can't recall if that is RAW or not) [/QUOTE]
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