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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eamon" data-source="post: 3914078" data-attributes="member: 51942">If you mean too high, then yes ;-).  A 12th level NPC with PC classes (doesn't really matter if it's melee or not) is a lot weaker than many CR 12 monsters out there.If the CR addition rules make any sense, then 4 monsters of CR equal to party level should be almost overpowering - but not quite.  i.e., the players should have a fair chance, but certainly not almost always always win.  However, an opposing party of 4 NPC's of the same level as the parties level isn't nearly that dangerous.  They have a lot less wealth, tend to be less well played simply because 1 DM isn't as attentive as 4 players (though if your players are neophytes and the DM plays tactically, that might not be the case), and generally don't benefit from all the subtle ways in which PC's get advantages (any stats above 25 point buy, access to infinity+1 prestige classes, action points, etc... all make PC's much more powerful than DMG NPCs).Even if you build custom NPC's with all the normal PC advantages but NPC wealth, that alone is worth a lot - at least at CR at 12th level.In general, I consider an optimized, min-maxxed NPC that's played no-holds-barred to kill the PC's as CR == NPC level -1.  If he's got commoner stats subtract another 1, if he's got less wealth subtract anything from 0 to 2 again, and if he's not optmized, subtract at least another 1.This eventually means that a party twice the size of the PC party and of the same level, minmaxxed but with NPC wealth, is considered overpowering, and the PC's should flee.  In practice, that's a party they actually might defeat, depending on the wealth issue, but that seems roughly fair.Note that at very low (1-3, maybe 4) levels the PC advantage is less, since their wealth isn't as stratospheric yet.</blockquote>

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