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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8117364" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>As far as I know, there were no true save-or-dies in 5e as initially released (whether any have been added since, I don't know); and many 'save-or-suck' elements e.g. paralyzation were greatly toned down either in effect or duration or both.</p><p></p><p>Which means the trick of, as far as possible, not putting yourself in those save-or-die situations in the first place has somewhat fallen by the wayside in favour of simply trusting the game not to kill you.</p><p></p><p>That 4e game sounds like good times!</p><p></p><p>You mention you retreated from a couple of encounters because you couldn't handle them - does anyone do that any more? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I guess I just don't take it all that seriously. Sure I'm disappointed sometimes, when a character that shows loads of potential snuffs it quick, but them's the breaks: pull out the dice and roll up another one.* Conversely, there's been times I've had characters who simply didn't work out like I had in mind but also didn't die.</p><p></p><p>* - and, with thus far only one exception, I don't come back with the same concept that just died. The one exception was a character who died <em>while being introduced to the party</em> (it was a strange session); with that one I came right back with the same idea again as it hadn't really been played the first time. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Short, yes. Disappointing, sometimes. Pointless, rarely if ever; provided the character lasted long enough to do at least one memorable or entertaining thing. Decided by forces entirely outside my control, sometimes; but in hindsight all too often I can see the error(s) I made that led to the character's demise. And note this doesn't stop me from making those same errors again! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>When an older edition flat-out did something better than the current one does I'm going to call it out.</p><p></p><p>That's a bit more extreme a death rate than even I'm used to. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> But yes, there's going to be some one-hit wonders.</p><p></p><p>My usual analogy is comparing the characters in an ongoing party to the players on a sports team. Some players on a team have long careers and become stars; others have shorter careers and are more or less forgotten before long unless they do something special; and most don't stick around for very long at all before they get cut or sent back to the minors.</p><p></p><p>Looking at the all-time stats for the Vancouver Canucks, who I've followed faithfully since they came into the NHL, shows that 621* players have played at least one regular season game for the team. Of those, 132* played 10 games or less - they'd be the equivalent of one-hit wonder characters in a D&D party. Another 166* played between 11 and 50 games - so not even a full season, but enough that there's a small chance they did something memorable.</p><p></p><p>138* played 150 games or more, i.e. at least two full seasons worth.</p><p></p><p>* - numbers taken from this page: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vancouver_Canucks_players" target="_blank">List of Vancouver Canucks players - Wikipedia</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can't remove the randomness but, if desired, you can mitigate the results such that the randomness leads only to a temporary or permanent setback rather than a death. (or, in a more extreme example, you can plot-protect characters such that they can't die no matter what they do; but this can go south in a hurry once the players realize their characters are effectively immortal)</p><p></p><p>Losing members isn't the change; it merely leads to the change that happens when new members come in.</p><p></p><p>Heh - I'm a cynical person by nature, so I guess it all fits. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>See below re believability.</p><p></p><p>Believability and internal (mechanical) consistency.</p><p></p><p>If we-as-a-party meet an NPC adventuring party on the road, believability suggests we should in theory be able to swap half the people between parties without missing a beat - they're just like us. They - like we - fit in as an integral part of a larger world or setting.</p><p></p><p>Put another way, people in the game world don't go around with stickers on their heads saying 'PC' or 'NPC'. They're just people.</p><p></p><p>My game, my table, my gates.</p><p></p><p>There's an active-right-now thread in 'general' regarding player recruitment in which I explain my standards a bit more fully.</p><p></p><p>I always assume people put the '5e' tag on edition-agnostic threads just so the thread will get noticed and-or read by those who filter out everything else.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8117364, member: 29398"] As far as I know, there were no true save-or-dies in 5e as initially released (whether any have been added since, I don't know); and many 'save-or-suck' elements e.g. paralyzation were greatly toned down either in effect or duration or both. Which means the trick of, as far as possible, not putting yourself in those save-or-die situations in the first place has somewhat fallen by the wayside in favour of simply trusting the game not to kill you. That 4e game sounds like good times! You mention you retreated from a couple of encounters because you couldn't handle them - does anyone do that any more? :) I guess I just don't take it all that seriously. Sure I'm disappointed sometimes, when a character that shows loads of potential snuffs it quick, but them's the breaks: pull out the dice and roll up another one.* Conversely, there's been times I've had characters who simply didn't work out like I had in mind but also didn't die. * - and, with thus far only one exception, I don't come back with the same concept that just died. The one exception was a character who died [I]while being introduced to the party[/I] (it was a strange session); with that one I came right back with the same idea again as it hadn't really been played the first time. :) Short, yes. Disappointing, sometimes. Pointless, rarely if ever; provided the character lasted long enough to do at least one memorable or entertaining thing. Decided by forces entirely outside my control, sometimes; but in hindsight all too often I can see the error(s) I made that led to the character's demise. And note this doesn't stop me from making those same errors again! :) When an older edition flat-out did something better than the current one does I'm going to call it out. That's a bit more extreme a death rate than even I'm used to. :) But yes, there's going to be some one-hit wonders. My usual analogy is comparing the characters in an ongoing party to the players on a sports team. Some players on a team have long careers and become stars; others have shorter careers and are more or less forgotten before long unless they do something special; and most don't stick around for very long at all before they get cut or sent back to the minors. Looking at the all-time stats for the Vancouver Canucks, who I've followed faithfully since they came into the NHL, shows that 621* players have played at least one regular season game for the team. Of those, 132* played 10 games or less - they'd be the equivalent of one-hit wonder characters in a D&D party. Another 166* played between 11 and 50 games - so not even a full season, but enough that there's a small chance they did something memorable. 138* played 150 games or more, i.e. at least two full seasons worth. * - numbers taken from this page: [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Vancouver_Canucks_players"]List of Vancouver Canucks players - Wikipedia[/URL] You can't remove the randomness but, if desired, you can mitigate the results such that the randomness leads only to a temporary or permanent setback rather than a death. (or, in a more extreme example, you can plot-protect characters such that they can't die no matter what they do; but this can go south in a hurry once the players realize their characters are effectively immortal) Losing members isn't the change; it merely leads to the change that happens when new members come in. Heh - I'm a cynical person by nature, so I guess it all fits. :) See below re believability. Believability and internal (mechanical) consistency. If we-as-a-party meet an NPC adventuring party on the road, believability suggests we should in theory be able to swap half the people between parties without missing a beat - they're just like us. They - like we - fit in as an integral part of a larger world or setting. Put another way, people in the game world don't go around with stickers on their heads saying 'PC' or 'NPC'. They're just people. My game, my table, my gates. There's an active-right-now thread in 'general' regarding player recruitment in which I explain my standards a bit more fully. I always assume people put the '5e' tag on edition-agnostic threads just so the thread will get noticed and-or read by those who filter out everything else. [/QUOTE]
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