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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8121156" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Disagree: only one needs to be valuable. It's only when both have no value that the usefulness disappears.</p><p></p><p>Worth doing:</p><p>Success = something happens</p><p>Failure = something else happens</p><p></p><p>Success = something happens</p><p>Failure = nothing happens</p><p></p><p>Success = nothing happens</p><p>Failure = something happens (this one's much less common but it does arise)</p><p></p><p>Not worth doing:</p><p>Success = nothing happens</p><p>Failure = nothing happens</p><p></p><p>Best example I can give here is new RPG players. Brand new players often come up with the best and most creative ideas during play. Why? Because they haven't yet become hidebound by the rules - they just imagine the situation as described, think of something they can do and then try to do it.</p><p></p><p>And I rather suspect were others to chime in here there'd be a decent degree of agreement on this.</p><p></p><p>Depends who's defining what 'better' work is, doesn't it.</p><p></p><p>For almost anything creative that doesn't involve a safety hazard, rules are never necessary. Guidelines might be; and can be useful, as long as they're acknowledged as being no more than that.</p><p></p><p>Another anecdotal example. Despite having absolutely no formal musical training, I write lyrics and (by ear) songs, and play in a studio-only band. The other guys in the band have way more formal training than I do...and I can't count the number of times where I'll play something e.g. a chord progression and have them say "in theory that shouldn't work - but it does; how did you do that?" and I'll look at them blankly and shrug.</p><p></p><p>If a series of notes or chords sound good together I don't give a damn whether they're following any rules or not; and if they don't sound good together I'll just try something else. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I'll not dispute any of this; all of it happens far too often. I'll counter with all the bands who, for lack of a better term, "sell out" after their original music leads to some initial success and start following either corporate rules and-or making their subsequent music to fit a formula so it'll sell.</p><p></p><p>The example I used was this forum. To the best of my knowledge I've never gamed with any of you.</p><p></p><p>And then the question becomes one of determining who 'the majority' really is; as often a few louder voices saying one thing can drown out a big number of silent ones who think differently.</p><p></p><p>I think you might at this point be mixing up [USER=6689464]@MoonSong[/USER] 's posts with mine. I have no issue with characters having high stats, in part because my own observations tell me stats don't make a huge difference in the long run. What I do have issue with is the expectation that they must all have the same stats, rather than random.</p><p></p><p>Again, you're misremembering who said what. In my eyes 'born lucky' doesn't matter.</p><p></p><p>Char-gen luck does not lead to luck during play. They're different and IME almost completely disconneted things.</p><p></p><p>I just dug up the numbers I ran. I looked at about 180 characters, all rolled up using very similar methods and with rolls observed by others, and noted the starting stats for each. Roughly 90 of these were our 'hall of heroes' - those characters who had done at least ten adventures. The rest were a 'control group' - a random selection of characters who didn't last as long.</p><p></p><p>My intent was to determine whether starting stats made a difference in one's odds of getting to the hall of heroes. (as a sidebar I did some campaign-v-campaign comparison to see if the numbers matched the eye test where some campaigns appeared to have seen luckier rolling than others)</p><p></p><p>I'm no statistician, thus I've no way of knowing whether a 0.28 difference in overall stat average between the heroes group and the control group is significant or not; but it doesn't seem like much.</p><p></p><p>We have different standards of "long". To me, two-and-a-half years is just nicely getting started. When it hits ten years, let me know. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I'm the other way around: if they're not perfect I'll make them perfect* - or at least get them closer than they were. The game I run uses a rules system that started with 1e and has had 40+ years of modifications laid on to it; and it's still getting tweaked.</p><p></p><p>* - by my own definition, of course, which won't apply to everyone.</p><p></p><p>This is exactly the trial-and-error bit I mean. Yes, not every fix is going to work, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't try.</p><p></p><p>Funny - one of the next things on my to-do list is to re-do and fine-tune the save matrix. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Those hard-mode features should be opt-out rather than opt-in, as it's always easier to remove barriers and restrictions than to implement them.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8121156, member: 29398"] Disagree: only one needs to be valuable. It's only when both have no value that the usefulness disappears. Worth doing: Success = something happens Failure = something else happens Success = something happens Failure = nothing happens Success = nothing happens Failure = something happens (this one's much less common but it does arise) Not worth doing: Success = nothing happens Failure = nothing happens Best example I can give here is new RPG players. Brand new players often come up with the best and most creative ideas during play. Why? Because they haven't yet become hidebound by the rules - they just imagine the situation as described, think of something they can do and then try to do it. And I rather suspect were others to chime in here there'd be a decent degree of agreement on this. Depends who's defining what 'better' work is, doesn't it. For almost anything creative that doesn't involve a safety hazard, rules are never necessary. Guidelines might be; and can be useful, as long as they're acknowledged as being no more than that. Another anecdotal example. Despite having absolutely no formal musical training, I write lyrics and (by ear) songs, and play in a studio-only band. The other guys in the band have way more formal training than I do...and I can't count the number of times where I'll play something e.g. a chord progression and have them say "in theory that shouldn't work - but it does; how did you do that?" and I'll look at them blankly and shrug. If a series of notes or chords sound good together I don't give a damn whether they're following any rules or not; and if they don't sound good together I'll just try something else. :) I'll not dispute any of this; all of it happens far too often. I'll counter with all the bands who, for lack of a better term, "sell out" after their original music leads to some initial success and start following either corporate rules and-or making their subsequent music to fit a formula so it'll sell. The example I used was this forum. To the best of my knowledge I've never gamed with any of you. And then the question becomes one of determining who 'the majority' really is; as often a few louder voices saying one thing can drown out a big number of silent ones who think differently. I think you might at this point be mixing up [USER=6689464]@MoonSong[/USER] 's posts with mine. I have no issue with characters having high stats, in part because my own observations tell me stats don't make a huge difference in the long run. What I do have issue with is the expectation that they must all have the same stats, rather than random. Again, you're misremembering who said what. In my eyes 'born lucky' doesn't matter. Char-gen luck does not lead to luck during play. They're different and IME almost completely disconneted things. I just dug up the numbers I ran. I looked at about 180 characters, all rolled up using very similar methods and with rolls observed by others, and noted the starting stats for each. Roughly 90 of these were our 'hall of heroes' - those characters who had done at least ten adventures. The rest were a 'control group' - a random selection of characters who didn't last as long. My intent was to determine whether starting stats made a difference in one's odds of getting to the hall of heroes. (as a sidebar I did some campaign-v-campaign comparison to see if the numbers matched the eye test where some campaigns appeared to have seen luckier rolling than others) I'm no statistician, thus I've no way of knowing whether a 0.28 difference in overall stat average between the heroes group and the control group is significant or not; but it doesn't seem like much. We have different standards of "long". To me, two-and-a-half years is just nicely getting started. When it hits ten years, let me know. :) I'm the other way around: if they're not perfect I'll make them perfect* - or at least get them closer than they were. The game I run uses a rules system that started with 1e and has had 40+ years of modifications laid on to it; and it's still getting tweaked. * - by my own definition, of course, which won't apply to everyone. This is exactly the trial-and-error bit I mean. Yes, not every fix is going to work, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't try. Funny - one of the next things on my to-do list is to re-do and fine-tune the save matrix. :) Those hard-mode features should be opt-out rather than opt-in, as it's always easier to remove barriers and restrictions than to implement them. [/QUOTE]
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