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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8121276" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>It comes down to whether success in any given situation means getting something you want (i.e. changing the status quo for the better: I successfully climb the wall) or not getting something you don't want (i.e. the status quo is better than the alternative: I successfully remained hidden here and the guards didn't see me on their latest pass). I think either case produces relevant stakes.</p><p></p><p>What you're proposing makes retention of the status quo an impossible result: either something happens, or something else happens; and in the fiction this isn't always going to make sense.</p><p></p><p>This comes down to playing in character - the character has no way of knowing whether success or failure matters or not either until later, or never.</p><p></p><p>I hear you. One of the things I specifically look for when deciding who to invite in is whether that player is likely to entertain me and the other players (I'm confident in my own ability to entertain); which means I default toward the more outgoing types as those tend to be more entertaining on average.</p><p></p><p>I see "rule" and "law" as synonyms: breaking either has potential consequences. A rule in chess is that your rook can only move in straight lines.</p><p></p><p>A guideline, on the other hand, is something - usually advice - that can be adhered to or not, as the mood strikes. A guideline in chess is that the central four squares are important in the early game.</p><p></p><p>In RPGs, many things people tend to see as rules I tend to see more as guidelines.</p><p></p><p>I put point buy into the all-the-same category. Sure it allows for much more variety than fixed array, but you're still starting from the same overall base. Further, in neither system can you have anything less than an 8 unless the DM overwrites the rule, and sometimes having something below 8 is what makes a character work.</p><p></p><p>Hmmm...you don't like it when I use anecdotes as evidence, and you don't like it when I use actual numbers as evidence. This makes things tricky... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Not in these parts... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>As 4e seems like a system that produces something very close to what you want, that you're saying this all makes sense.</p><p></p><p>I, meanwhile, would have to strip 4e right down to the floor and rebuild it from scratch to get it even vaguely close to anything I'd want to touch either as DM or player; and what I'd probably end up with would be something more like 1e or 2e with lots of 3e and 4e elements included. (but I doubt it'd resemble 5e very much)</p><p></p><p>As that's simply more work than it's worth, I'll stick with plan A: carrying on with my own system and incorporating good ideas from others where I see them (e.g. 4e's 'bloodied' mechanic - great idea, though I still haven't worked it into my system yet)</p><p></p><p>Not sure I understand the example. Removing THAC0 (or, in my case, never using it in the first place) is easy, as to me THAC0 is an obstacle in that it adds a needless step to a process which otherwise arrives at the same result.</p><p></p><p>Ask any DM who has placed homebrew restrictions on the game (e.g. no Elves in this setting; or expansion-book XYZ will not be used in this campaign), as to how players often react. Speed limits on roads - no driver ever complains when the speed limit is raised, but they sure do when it's lowered.</p><p></p><p>It's simply easier to start with the most restrictive situation and ease it off than to do the reverse.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8121276, member: 29398"] It comes down to whether success in any given situation means getting something you want (i.e. changing the status quo for the better: I successfully climb the wall) or not getting something you don't want (i.e. the status quo is better than the alternative: I successfully remained hidden here and the guards didn't see me on their latest pass). I think either case produces relevant stakes. What you're proposing makes retention of the status quo an impossible result: either something happens, or something else happens; and in the fiction this isn't always going to make sense. This comes down to playing in character - the character has no way of knowing whether success or failure matters or not either until later, or never. I hear you. One of the things I specifically look for when deciding who to invite in is whether that player is likely to entertain me and the other players (I'm confident in my own ability to entertain); which means I default toward the more outgoing types as those tend to be more entertaining on average. I see "rule" and "law" as synonyms: breaking either has potential consequences. A rule in chess is that your rook can only move in straight lines. A guideline, on the other hand, is something - usually advice - that can be adhered to or not, as the mood strikes. A guideline in chess is that the central four squares are important in the early game. In RPGs, many things people tend to see as rules I tend to see more as guidelines. I put point buy into the all-the-same category. Sure it allows for much more variety than fixed array, but you're still starting from the same overall base. Further, in neither system can you have anything less than an 8 unless the DM overwrites the rule, and sometimes having something below 8 is what makes a character work. Hmmm...you don't like it when I use anecdotes as evidence, and you don't like it when I use actual numbers as evidence. This makes things tricky... :) Not in these parts... :) As 4e seems like a system that produces something very close to what you want, that you're saying this all makes sense. I, meanwhile, would have to strip 4e right down to the floor and rebuild it from scratch to get it even vaguely close to anything I'd want to touch either as DM or player; and what I'd probably end up with would be something more like 1e or 2e with lots of 3e and 4e elements included. (but I doubt it'd resemble 5e very much) As that's simply more work than it's worth, I'll stick with plan A: carrying on with my own system and incorporating good ideas from others where I see them (e.g. 4e's 'bloodied' mechanic - great idea, though I still haven't worked it into my system yet) Not sure I understand the example. Removing THAC0 (or, in my case, never using it in the first place) is easy, as to me THAC0 is an obstacle in that it adds a needless step to a process which otherwise arrives at the same result. Ask any DM who has placed homebrew restrictions on the game (e.g. no Elves in this setting; or expansion-book XYZ will not be used in this campaign), as to how players often react. Speed limits on roads - no driver ever complains when the speed limit is raised, but they sure do when it's lowered. It's simply easier to start with the most restrictive situation and ease it off than to do the reverse. [/QUOTE]
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