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At my table: Hexblade removed, Pact of the Blade enhanced
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7304163" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>[MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] I'm sorry, but we can't really look at any class or ability in a bubble. Any bubble is artificial, because each class and ability is interconnected. If we are to believe a concept of mechanical balance exists, then it seems to me a kind of fallacy to attempt to look at any particular class or ability in a bubble. Alternatively, if a bubble were to exist, anything you put in that bubble is balanced. Balance, power level, underpowered, overpowered, these are terms that identify a relationship between things. If there is a bubble, there is no relationship. A thing just is. </p><p></p><p>As to conceptual execution, there is nothing that says an Eldritch Knight Fighter with the right amount of reskinning could represent a Hexblade Warlock. So we have to look at what you are trying to do. Are you trying to turn the Warlock into a fighter? What is it about the Warlock mechanics that you want for your frontline martial character. Is it Hex? Or eldritch blast? You can gain those with the Magic Initiate feat. Is it short rest spell slots? You could probably do that more easily with a Fighter and create an archetype similar to the Eldritch Knight.</p><p></p><p>No other class can use a spellcasting stat for melee or ranged weapon attacks. Clerics can't. Druids can't without Shillelagh. What makes the Warlock different in this aspect? </p><p></p><p>As for the original patrons, no I do not think they are underpowered. I think they represent a good standard. Perhaps some aspects of the warlock should be class features rather than "choices" because cantrips such as eldritch blast and spells such as hex are so integral to the class balance that not taking them can reduce the class's balance in comparison to other spellcaster classes. </p><p></p><p>But also, in response to what you state regarding the Hexblade, Pact of the Blade, and the other Patrons, I don't believe there should be an idea that a Pact of the Blade character MUST choose a Hexblade Patron to be viable. If this is the idea, then these become trap options. A Hexblade should be viable with any Pact, just as any Patron should be viable with Pact of the Blade. Perhaps some subtle synergy exists between certain combinations. But it should not be such that it weakens the character to take predetermined choices to make it work. If that were the case, then just combine the Patron and Pact into a single archetype chosen at level 1 similar to the Sorcerer archetypes. </p><p></p><p>Even if using only melee weapons, the Hexblade as written offers too much. It seems to have been created in response to poor design elements in the original presentation of the Warlock. To me, the Hexblade identifies 3 problems with the Warlock.</p><p></p><p>1) Lack of armor options for Warlocks wishing to pursue melee specialty.</p><p>2) Options for attack that make Warlocks worthwhile to use in melee</p><p>3) That Hex as a spell failed to achieve what it conceptually was supposed to, and that Hex as a class feature works better.</p><p></p><p>Hexblade as a Patron can offer armor. This would benefit any Pact. It should not be limited to benefiting the Pact of the Blade, or benefiting it such that Pact of the Blade is only viable with the Hexblade patron.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, the eldritch blast is already a iconic cantrip for the warlock. It is THE defining feature of the warlock, as the warlock began in 3.5E as the only caster that could blast every single round. Eldritch Blast makes the warlock what it is. Using that as the basis for Pact of the Blade, then, makes sense. Allowing you to use it in melee gives the same benefits of a fighter. And just as a fighter can improve their prowess with fighting styles, feats, and magic weapons, the warlock can improve their Eldritch Blast as Pact Weapon with invocations. However, because it is a spell, it does not mix with actual magic weapons or feats (outside of spell sniper maybe). This also makes sense, because a warlock as more opportunities to utilize invocations to improve their eldritch blast.</p><p></p><p>And applying Hex as class feature rather than spell can slightly bump every archetype up to place them in relative balance with Druids, Bards, and Clerics (comparison to Wizards and Sorcerers is not quite right based on my personal feel).</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] That could work. I'd say you still should have flexibility to use either the ranged or melee version. But maybe just that while you are engaged in melee if you try the ranged version to attack some else at a distance it would still be at disadvantage. Essentially make it two cantrips. Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Weapon.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 7304163, member: 59848"] [MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] I'm sorry, but we can't really look at any class or ability in a bubble. Any bubble is artificial, because each class and ability is interconnected. If we are to believe a concept of mechanical balance exists, then it seems to me a kind of fallacy to attempt to look at any particular class or ability in a bubble. Alternatively, if a bubble were to exist, anything you put in that bubble is balanced. Balance, power level, underpowered, overpowered, these are terms that identify a relationship between things. If there is a bubble, there is no relationship. A thing just is. As to conceptual execution, there is nothing that says an Eldritch Knight Fighter with the right amount of reskinning could represent a Hexblade Warlock. So we have to look at what you are trying to do. Are you trying to turn the Warlock into a fighter? What is it about the Warlock mechanics that you want for your frontline martial character. Is it Hex? Or eldritch blast? You can gain those with the Magic Initiate feat. Is it short rest spell slots? You could probably do that more easily with a Fighter and create an archetype similar to the Eldritch Knight. No other class can use a spellcasting stat for melee or ranged weapon attacks. Clerics can't. Druids can't without Shillelagh. What makes the Warlock different in this aspect? As for the original patrons, no I do not think they are underpowered. I think they represent a good standard. Perhaps some aspects of the warlock should be class features rather than "choices" because cantrips such as eldritch blast and spells such as hex are so integral to the class balance that not taking them can reduce the class's balance in comparison to other spellcaster classes. But also, in response to what you state regarding the Hexblade, Pact of the Blade, and the other Patrons, I don't believe there should be an idea that a Pact of the Blade character MUST choose a Hexblade Patron to be viable. If this is the idea, then these become trap options. A Hexblade should be viable with any Pact, just as any Patron should be viable with Pact of the Blade. Perhaps some subtle synergy exists between certain combinations. But it should not be such that it weakens the character to take predetermined choices to make it work. If that were the case, then just combine the Patron and Pact into a single archetype chosen at level 1 similar to the Sorcerer archetypes. Even if using only melee weapons, the Hexblade as written offers too much. It seems to have been created in response to poor design elements in the original presentation of the Warlock. To me, the Hexblade identifies 3 problems with the Warlock. 1) Lack of armor options for Warlocks wishing to pursue melee specialty. 2) Options for attack that make Warlocks worthwhile to use in melee 3) That Hex as a spell failed to achieve what it conceptually was supposed to, and that Hex as a class feature works better. Hexblade as a Patron can offer armor. This would benefit any Pact. It should not be limited to benefiting the Pact of the Blade, or benefiting it such that Pact of the Blade is only viable with the Hexblade patron. Additionally, the eldritch blast is already a iconic cantrip for the warlock. It is THE defining feature of the warlock, as the warlock began in 3.5E as the only caster that could blast every single round. Eldritch Blast makes the warlock what it is. Using that as the basis for Pact of the Blade, then, makes sense. Allowing you to use it in melee gives the same benefits of a fighter. And just as a fighter can improve their prowess with fighting styles, feats, and magic weapons, the warlock can improve their Eldritch Blast as Pact Weapon with invocations. However, because it is a spell, it does not mix with actual magic weapons or feats (outside of spell sniper maybe). This also makes sense, because a warlock as more opportunities to utilize invocations to improve their eldritch blast. And applying Hex as class feature rather than spell can slightly bump every archetype up to place them in relative balance with Druids, Bards, and Clerics (comparison to Wizards and Sorcerers is not quite right based on my personal feel). [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] That could work. I'd say you still should have flexibility to use either the ranged or melee version. But maybe just that while you are engaged in melee if you try the ranged version to attack some else at a distance it would still be at disadvantage. Essentially make it two cantrips. Eldritch Blast and Eldritch Weapon. [/QUOTE]
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