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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kenada" data-source="post: 8588243" data-attributes="member: 70468">The issue that was pointed out to me in one of the other TB2 threads is that “skilled play” is definitionally Step On Up. As I understand it, mixing creative agendas is usually not desired.I find this interesting personally because it has implications for the stakes-based approach I am attempting with my homebrew system. What I have been trying to lay out is a principled approach based on using the campaign to answer a fundamental stakes question, and the GM is truly a referee charged with overseeing the system and setting once set in motion.The problem is that framing the stakes in this way turns the campaign into a challenge the players are seeing if they can overcome. While the outcome is not prescribed (which would negate* the challenge), the players presumably want to accomplish the goal and will play accordingly.Coming back to the topic of this thread, I think this has obvious implications for skilled play when it comes to a game like Torchbearer. There’s obviously a skilled play element to it. Regardless of how proficient the players are at it, you want to make sure you are taking the steps needed to ensure your character’s survival. Being an adventurer is dangerous and hard. That’s a major theme in the game, and TB deploys its mechanics in service of that.However, the point of the game isn’t to engage with the mechanics. There is a challenge, and overcoming the challenge is an important part of play, but I don’t think it’s the point of play. If one strictly takes any challenge-based play as Step On Up, then almost any game could be construed through that lens. This is the question that [USER=1282]@darkbard[/USER] raises with regards to certain Story Now principles.I think the answer to that question depends on whether skilled play is a means to an end or the end itself. One can see it in certain styles of D&D play where the point is to overcome challenges levied at the PCs. I don’t think TB is one of those games because the purpose of the challenge is thematic reinforcement. Otherwise, I don’t see how you could have game elements at all without risking incoherence or drifting from your creative agenda.-- * This actually make me wonder if trad and OC/trad are not Step On Up because play is about experiencing the negotiated story beats (or as I <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/is-there-room-in-modern-gaming-for-the-osr-to-bring-in-new-gamers.680045/post-8280969" target="_blank">noted</a> with regards to combat in another thread: challenge is performative). I would almost call that Right to Dream, but the system is subordinate to the experience (not just set in motion and allowed to operate).</blockquote>

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