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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8599447" data-attributes="member: 82106">OK, well, you seem totally hell bent on approaching this as me trying to 'win an argument' with you, but really I'm not! Still, it seems to have reached a point where this line of discussion isn't fruitful anymore. Maybe sometime in the future? In any case, the only area where I see some clarity is in this: I don't think that there's a lack of 'full throated advocacy for character' here. I mean, given bare mechanics free consensus (agreement of all stakeholders) there are only two possibilities, either they do agree to something and the game goes on, or they don't agree and everyone gets up from the table and goes home, since play cannot proceed from that point! Thus, when they agree that the Princess is hanging over the edge of the cliff, they have each got everything they could ever possibly get! If that's not complete advocacy, what is? Not only that, but I'd argue that neither side really compromised at all, or very very little. Joe's AGENDA is to enact the intentions his character's persona generates when confronted with the fiction, likewise Bob. Each one did that. Joe harmed the Princess, Bob protected the Princess. I don't see the issue here... Sure, the Princess is not smashed on the rocks below, but that isn't for lack of Joe's character trying to accomplish that! Now, where does the story go from here? That might be a more useful question, and that would be the point where I see mechanics of some sort coming into play. Perhaps in a Fiasco style game we end the scene at the cliffhanger and its left there until subsequent events, or the procedure determining who goes next, brings it back. Perhaps by then only one outcome is feasible and someone's plan is thwarted. Or maybe a third possibility arises. Still, the more classic and IMHO reliable way is some dice, but that doesn't mean the way Fiasco did it cannot be Story Now, IMHO. Now, games like my Space Station Scenario get around this by simply being finite (I mean, it had dice too, but even without dice, if you reached an impasse in the fiction, then blowing up the station at that point would be a viable out). You might call it a copout if you wish, but finitely bounded games do have some interesting traits.</blockquote>

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