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Message: <blockquote data-quote="keterys" data-source="post: 5092306" data-attributes="member: 43019">Who said they were area or close powers? What if it's "Lasting Threat" or "Lead the Attack" to come from a far worse case perspective? There are many powers that are almost tailor made to be used with minions, like Cleave, Sure Strike, while there are others that are silly to use on them, like Reaping Strike. Much like the decision about whether to use Fort-based or Will-based powers against the Tarrasque. Stun is pretty unfun. Almost half the creatures that can stun are dragons, so that's somewhat predictable and a little less egregious, but sure - don't use stun more than 10% of the time, but sometimes do it when it's appropriate.Similarly, don't hide what are minions most of the time, but occasionally (say about 10% of the time) it may be worthwhile.Unless, of course, your group is really into stun. Or hiding minion status.Which is the big question. KD - is your group really into not knowing? Or is it more of a 'Big deal you cry baby, you don't need to know' if one complained or you never even asked, because you knew better than them (or what they wanted didn't matter, it was what you wanted).Cause, really, that's the crux of the question. The fighter sees a bunch of scary orcs. They're described as scary. There are enough of them that the party is slightly outnumbered, but not too bad. Let's say he sees six orcs, but that's because there are four minions, 2 real ones, and there's an elite who will join in the fight momentarily. So the party is outnumbered six to five from his perspective, he figures they're all real, so he does lasting threat so he can try to take one down quickly and/or at least leave it marked while he gets another one setup. And before he finishes rolling damage, the DM laughs and tells him it's dead. 'Damnit, I just wasted a daily on a minion, huh?' 'Suck it up, you'll get it back tomorrow'.Some groups will laugh or enjoy the cat and mouse game of figuring it out. In other groups, it's antagonistic. Which is why it's valuable to figure out which it is for your group (and not just for the DM) and why the default advice is to give good descriptions so the party knows enough to make actual tactical decisions, like 'These orcs are young and wield an assortment of rusty weapons. This one over here wears a necklace of human ears. This one here has only one eye and his spear tip is covered in layers of dried blood.' Maybe they don't know that orc bloodrager is going to charge in later, still, but hey they know not to waste big powers on the four scrawnier orcs.Minions should be threats. If they're not threats, you need new minions.Again, Chess has perfect knowledge and is both tactical and entertaining. I was just playing King's Bounty earlier and the depth of tactics I can achieve by knowing how far things can move, what my spells will do, how likely I am to destroy stuff, etc is far greater than if all of those were up in the air. That is actually a fact. The more I know about my powers and the more I know about the enemy, the more I can plan and do effective tactics. You don't want perfect knowledge in D&D, necessarily. Though even defenses can be given and still be quite entertaining.Going more deeply - why are you giving the PCs so little information that they can't tell the difference between someone with AC 17 and someone with AC 22? That's a 5 level difference. That's like saying there's no difference between an ogre and an orc. I mean, 20 and 22 or 17 and 19, sure, that's a pretty small difference, but there's something major going on there, whether it's thick natural hide, enchanted chain, far more ready combat reflexes that let it avoid blows more ably, etc.</blockquote>

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