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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5096721" data-attributes="member: 82106">Mmmmm. Mixed in with the rhetoric there is a real debate here, but honestly I don't think there is a single clear answer to what 'minionhood' is. Some may see it as one thing and some as another, and there are those of us who may see it as possibly going both ways. Mostly the approach the DM takes is a matter of style, group preference, and perhaps circumstance. Personally I've chosen to hew close to the letter of the written rules with 4e simply because I choose to play a game as it was written at least to the extent that it appears that the designers did a decent job of thinking things through. Once in a while you run into a situation where they may not have, but in the case of 4e I don't often find that to be the case. More often I find they had thought well past the point I was at when I thought about it.So lets see... The knowledge rules divide everything up into three groups: common, expert, and master. Additionally knowledge can be more restricted by tier so paragon and epic tier related knowledge is harder to come by.Monster name, type, and keywords is basically common knowledge (admittedly it has a slightly higher DC). So while not every peasant knows enough about goblins to identify them a fair number do. Most level 1 PCs will have a fair chance of knowing a goblin when they see it and in most parties at least one PC will probably know this stuff trivially. This is your "type, typical temperament, and keywords". Whether this is literally including the MM name of the specific monster is a bit ambiguous but certainly the character will easily know "This is a goblin warrior, which is a natural humanoid goblin", perhaps couched in less technical terms by the DM. Likewise the average adventurer has some chance of knowing what powers said goblin has and an expert will probably know this more often than not. Exactly what is meant by knowing a creatures powers isn't precisely defined but presumably you have a good idea of what kinds of attacks they can make and other 'special' things they can do. "Goblin warriors prefer to use javelins and when able to move freely their attacks can be quite dangerous. Like all goblins they are experts at slipping away from attackers and are hard to pin down."Chances are most PCs at level 1 won't know highly specific resistances and vulnerabilities but as they travel around and gain experience this information will likely be available to them. Presumably a cleric will get a handle on the more esoteric characteristics of undead as they level up. By 10th level a cleric will most likely know the resistances and vulnerabilities of heroic tier (reasonably common) undead. "You know that the Osteopede is a construct of bone which is not vulnerable to radiant damage as most undead are. However it is highly resistant to necrotic energy and cannot be poisoned."All of this is just inherent knowledge that PCs have. The rules don't even say there IS an option to make this check, it just happens. When you see something you get a knowledge check. Now, noplace in here do the rules explicitly talk about minion or other status or monster roles. The rules seem to be primarily giving a framework for determining character knowledge. This doesn't mean that players can't, shouldn't, or don't know anything about game mechanical knowledge, of course they do. It just means the designers left it to the DM to decide how much and at what level of detail and by what means to reveal it.I won't get involved in the arguments on this thread. Personally I don't use the terms minion or elite or solo or even the names of roles in-game. Honestly I've just never seen a need to do it. We all talk about this stuff now and then in bull sessions after a game or during a break when we may talk about the rules but I don't feel a need to give that info the characters. Realistically I've found that its rare for the characters to fail to identify the "mooks" and deal with them accordingly. Depending on the situation that may be a result of how a monster is described or how it acts or things a character notices using perception or insight, or once in a while a player has dropped an encounter spell on a minion. Honestly they're usually just happy they killed something easily. The few times a player has broken out a daily on one it has always been something with substantial ongoing effects anyway and they had nothing to complain about. It all seems like a fairly minor issue to me overall. In some groups maybe it would be an issue, I don't know. I'd think its up to the DM to adjust a bit to play style but that too may depend on the context of the game.</blockquote>

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