At what point is it no longer d20?

takyris

First Post
This sounds a little like a House Rule to me, but it's less about the rule itself than the idea behind it. At what point does it cease to be d20 and start to be something else?

Random House Rules I've been mulling, not for the campaign I'm running but for some new campaign, somewhere... Watch as the game slowly turns into something utterly different.

Start with d20 Modern
- Add WP/VP system to replace hit points
- After hearing myself rant on and on about how Strength really means coordination, get tired of being told that there's no book evidence for it. Take out Strength, separate Dexterity into Precision and Agility (a common-enough RPG differentiation point), with Agility modifying melee attacks, defense, initiative, and fast full-body skills like Tumble, and Precision modifying ranged attacks, slow full-body skills like Hide and Move Silently, and Fine-tuning skills like Disable Device. Use Constitution to determine bonuses to melee damage, since most folks have issue with the idea of a weak person who isn't frail, or a tough person who isn't strong.
- Change Armor to DR rather than Defense boosting
- Replace critical hits with the following: you do an extra point of damage for every point by which you beat the needed Defense of the target. If you do more damage with a single strike than your target's Con, the target takes normal damage (VP) and must then make a Fort save (15) or take the base weapon damage (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, etc) in WP damage (which directly bypasses VP). If you do more damage with a single strike than your target's Agi, the target takes normal damage (VP) and must make a Ref save (15) or lose all remaining VP. If you do more damage with a single strike than your target's Wis, the target takes normal damage and must make a Will save (15) or be shaken for 1d6 rounds.
- Switch over from BAB to a system where there are Non-Combat Skills (Jump, Climb, etc) and Combat skills (Stabbing, Slashing, Crushing, Pole-Arms, and Flexible for melee weapons, for instance, in addition to the combat usage of Tumble).
- Switch from levels to point-based character improvement -- some document would contain basic builds, so that people who wanted to improve all at once would be able to do so easily, but people who wanted to be the world's best lockpicker but useless in a fight (Disable Device +27, BAB+0, 6 hit points) could make that character.

Okay, so at what point did I completely leave the d20 system? Or am I still in it? I've shifted the physical scores, combat is bound to be a lot more dangerous, and there are no more levels. But I'm still using d20+ranks to determine whether or not I succeed at things. That mechanic is utterly unchanged.

More a philosophical point than anything else. I'm wondering how long it remains "My grandfather's axe" -- how many times you can replace the head and the haft before it's a new animal... or, you know, something like that. :)
 

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OK, so you're comfortable totally revamping the system, good on you, have fun. Why do you care what it's called? d20 is just a marketing term anyway, to help Wizards sell more PHBs.

Mechanically, dropping strength and adding a new kinda Dex is pretty novel, but most of the rest has been done. Mutants and Masterminds did the point-based thing, for instance. Star Wars did the DR thing and the VP/WP thing I think.
 


Pants said:
Mechanically, it's not D&D anymore, but it's still d20.

I tend to agree with this perspective.

As for the Pratchett anecdote about the axe, I'd say it ceases to be your grandfather's axe when you swap out the axe-head for a spiked ball. ;) Your changes aren't that drastic.
 

It ceases to be d20 when you use a d4 to resolve most rolls. Until then I wouldn't worry about it so long as the group is happy. I like the look of most of your rules.
 




I think the core d20 mechanic is d20 + ability modifier. If that mechanic is used primarily, it's d20 (As I understand it)

As noted above, Star Wars d20 already has some of the varients you're using anyway.
 

Rel said:
Dammit! I was just racing here to make that joke! Pants wins again!

Hmm... is that correct grammar, I wonder...

Pants wins again! Except that you would add an 's' to 'win' only if the subject were singular. In this case, though, you have a subject that could be singular, since it is referring to a person, but if it were the object, then it would be plural...

...

Most of the above look alright to me, and I think you're still within the bounds of d20.
 

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