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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 4686626" data-attributes="member: 5143">I agree with this.  And I admit that reducing the magic in a campaign is a valid goal.  Just not one I would want in my game.  As I said previously, I understand the desire.  I just think it'll have unforseen side effects if you just remove at wills.  If you turned all the at-wills into mundane attacks and left the rest of the class as it is, I wouldn't see a problem with it.Since this is me, we are taking about, I should respond.  The problem is, as it usually is, in the math.  While using a d20, even a small difference affects it a lot.  The difference between a 14 Strength Battlerage Vigor Fighter with a hammer(+4 to hit) vs the 20 Strength longsword fighter with one handed weapon focus(+9 to hit) is +5.  Which is a 25% difference in hit chance.  Against an AC 17 opponent, the first fighter hits 40% of the time.  The second fighter hits 65% of the time.  Even with his class bonus for having temporary hitpoints, the first fighter is doing an average of (9.5*0.4=)3.8 damage per round.  The second fighter is doing (9.5*0.65=)6.175 damage.  That's a 61% increase in damage.  But he also has a 25% greater chance to stun, daze, knock prone, push, or whatever his opponent.  And the difference becomes even larger when you use encounters or dailies.This is a fairly reasonable range.  25% difference is about the greatest difference you should see in one class if you want to plan out the defenses of your enemies.  I'd say it's designing just enough.So, I'm saying that at first level, being a wizard with a 14 in your strength seems like it is plausible to hit in melee.  However, at 30th level the Fighter who started with a 20 strength puts all his points into strength and takes Demigod and ups his strength 2 more has +28 to hit.  The same wizard who put all his points into Int and Wis(since he's an Orb wizard) and doesn't buy a magic melee weapon(since it cost him all his money to get armor, implement, and neck item) has +20 to hit.  If the standard chance to hit is 55% for the fighter, then the wizard has a 15% chance to hit.  Or, not really worth trying.The math actually works pretty good, in that, if you absolutely have NOTHING better to do than attack with that dagger, it might work.  Unlike 3e, where you'd only hit on a 20.  But, then again, 4e is designed so you ALWAYS have something better to do that has a GOOD chance of success.  If you remove at wills, then you actually have to resort to that useless attack.I'd just like to add that the difference was always that big.  In 3e, if you had a 10 strength wizard and were attacking with a dagger vs the 18 strength fighter with Weapon Focus attacking with his weapon, it was a huge difference which only got bigger and bigger.  The only thing that made it even somewhat tolerable was that enemies AC varied so much that you might run into a 9 or 10 AC opponent that you could hit, and that the game forced you to by giving you no other way to attack.</blockquote>

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