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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Michael Morris" data-source="post: 6350837" data-attributes="member: 87">First off, the "very, very, very powerful" beings argument is a fallicious argument - specifically <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts" target="_blank">moving the goalposts.</a>  If we go by the classical meaning of the term "god" - a being with ability and authority to change the world or a specific aspect of the world under their purview at will, then the beings labelled as gods in FR are deserving of their title.Whether they are deserving of worship is another matter.Now, a word on atheism and agnosticism.  Atheism is the position that gods don't exist - the reverse is theism, god(s) do exist.  Agnosticism is the position that you can't prove that god(s) exist, gnosticism is the claim that you can indeed prove their existence.  They are not the same question, but in non-theological circles they get conflated (badly) into one by laymen. It's a minor pet peeve of mine.Most atheists are gnostics - they believe the lack of evidence for gods is itself proof of their nonexistence.  The same holds true for most theists - they believe they can prove god exists, though to date all proofs ever offered have been subjective at best.  Most agnostics choose not to believe in god(s) for lack of proof otherwise, I personally am an agnostic that chooses to believe in God despite the lack of objective proof.  My logic for this lies outside the scope of what the forum rules will allow.You'll note above that proof is the defining point of contention in the real world.In the fantasy realms of D&D agnosticism is as absurd as flat-earth claims are in the real world.  Feel free to make such claims if you want, but in a world where deities have walked the streets, do talk to people, do send their agents into the world along with the occasional avatar, trying to claim there is no proof of the existence of gods is flat out absurdism. Atheism in the face of proof is likewise absurd.As Henry pointed out, an argument can be made for movements of individuals that challenge whether gods are worthy of worship. My setting had a sect of monks that specifically claimed that all beings where divine and one should worship themselves in order to cultivate their inner divinity rather than give such worship to the gods.  But even this sect wouldn't deny that the 20' tall shining jerk ass walking down the street wasn't divine.If you create an atypical D&D setting where deities don't exist or stay silent then the gnostic and theistic arguments have room to be voiced.  Just keep in mind such a structure is not D&D's default assumption.</blockquote>

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