AD&D 1E Atheist cleric situation...

[Rhemoraz]

I have a 10th level cleric in my campaign who doesn't worship any gods. He draws his powers from "the universe". As DM, I liked this spin on the class.

In my next game the players will need to travel through the ethereal plane. According to the Manual of the Planes, clerics are limited to only 1st & 2nd level spells if their deity doesn't make its home in the ethereal plane or an adjoining plane....but this cleric has no deity.

Should I let him slide & have access to all spells appropriate to his level or slap em with the limitation?

 

[ColinChapman]

I'd say that it depends on your setting.

 

[Fenris-77]

When in doubt the hack you've implemented should not recieve specific bonuses unless it specifically seems like it should. So my default would be no - the universe doesn't make its home on the etheral or an adjacent plane. Sure, you can get all ecumenical about it, but I tend not to do that when I've made an exception. For example, have you worked out out how the universe might be displeased with this cleric and restrict his access to spells? If not they already have a huge leg up over other clerics, so that's probably lots.

 

[Li Shenron]

I am not familiar with AD&D1 rules but I assume the following is more or less the RAW:

According to the Manual of the Planes, clerics are limited to only 1st & 2nd level spells if their deity doesn't make its home in the ethereal plane or an adjoining plane

According to which, my ruling would be that they suffers from the same limit, because having no deity implies their deity doesn't make its home in the ethereal plane.

 

[Mannahnin]

Interesting. By "limited to 1st and 2nd level spells" you mean praying for recovery, right? They can still cast higher level spells as normal, they just can't get them back if their deity doesn't live there or in an adjacent plane (Prime Material, an Inner Plane, or a Demi Plane). Of course, recovering spells still takes ten times as long as normal (MotP p20).

Per the DMG, all clerics MUST have a deity. There's an eleven paragraph section on receiving Cleric spells on pages 38-39. It breaks down which spells are granted by whom/what by level. 1st and 2nd level spells are acquired by novitiate Cleric training, learning the rituals and prayers of service and engaging in that service. 3rd to 5th level spells have to be granted by intermediate supernatural minions of the deity. And 6th and 7th level spells are directly granted by direct communication with the deity itself through prayer. The restriction you've referenced from the MotP is built on these rules.

Lesser clerics, then, draw only upon their education, training, and experience to gain spells, just as higher clerics do when they renew their first and second level spells. In order to gain third, fourth, and fifth level spells, however, higher clerics must reach intermediaries of their respective deities in order to have these powers bestowed upon them from the plane of their deity. When clerics become very great, they must petition their deity personally in order to receive the powerful words which enable the casting of sixth and seventh level cleric spells. It is obvious,therefore, that clerics wishing to use third or higher level spells must be in good standing.

I agree with Fenris that the Cleric being granted a special exception to the normal rules to not have a deity shouldn't exempt them from regular restrictions and make them arbitrarily more powerful. You should probably determine which plane counts as being "the universe"'s home plane for rules purposes. I presume you already worked out an ethos/set of values for The Universe so you know what kind of behavior by the Cleric would displease it.

I agree with Li Shenron's read that the RAW support the Ethereal plane restriction.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Seconding @Mannahnin, answering this question involves deciding where the cleric PC's 3rd and higher level spells come from. If the cleric doesn't have a deity, what is standing in for the "intermediary spirits" that grant 3rd–5th level spells? If it's just vague "natural forces of the universe" — which is the same answer I'd expect from, say, a druid who worships impersonal elemental forces rather than deities — they'd still be bound to the Prime Material Plane and not necessarily reachable on other planes. Certainly if we're using a 1e-based, Gygaxian cosmology. That's the route I'd personally go with, anyhow, as it keeps nontheistic clerics in balance with theistic ones.

In my next game the players will need to travel through the ethereal plane. According to the Manual of the Planes, clerics are limited to only 1st & 2nd level spells if their deity doesn't make its home in the ethereal plane or an adjoining plane....but this cleric has no deity.

So, functionally, the PC's deity would be some aspect of the Prime Material Plane itself, and since the Ethereal Plane is adjacent to it, the spells should still be available to the PC.

 

[Brendan Byrd]

...Or a Diety/Power/Immortal of Philosophy quietly grants specific Atheists higher level spells...
...Or a Diety/Power/Immortal of Chaos quietly grant specifc Athiests higher level spells...

In such a case, the location of the 'home plane' needs to be determined.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Headcanon: in the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms, Gond saves many a philosophical naturalist from the Wall of the Faithless.

 

[Deset Gled]

He draws his powers from "the universe"....

According to the Manual of the Planes, clerics are limited to only 1st & 2nd level spells if their deity doesn't make its home in the ethereal plane or an adjoining plane....

You should probably determine which plane counts as being "the universe"'s home plane for rules purposes.

If the cleric draws his powers from "the universe" and not "the multiverse", then we could conclude his powers are of an unknown source that ostensibly exists somewhere in his own universe, i.e. the Material plane. Furthermore (I could be wrong on this part), the Material plane is adjoining to the Ethereal plane.

Therefore, even if he doesn't consider his power source a "diety", the home of his power source is adjoining, and he could get access to higher level spells.

 

[Voadam]

How are you handling how he gets his powers normally? In the 1e DMG it requires divine servants or the god to physically deliver spells 3rd level and higher.

I dislike the 1e planar model of knocking out god connections for recharging cleric spells, reducing magical item efficacy each plane you cross over into (-1 plus per plane removed from its creation), and knocking out a bunch of spells on each plane. You could just ignore that MotP system entirely and treat it like later D&D where everybody gets their magic.

You could also go with the universe is all planes so he gets his powers from the ethereal as well and so full suite of spells.

Or you could go with universe is prime so count the prime as his god home plane so it is not on the prime but is adjoining.

Or you could go no deity so no deity in ethereal or adjoining so no recharge.

If you like the cosmology of a nontheistic mandate of heaven style cleric I say go with it.

AD&D 2e had nontheistic clerics of philosophies and forces and a similar planar type arrangement. Legends and Lore even has Taoist philosophy specialty priests IIRC. I don't recall how it handled those types of clerics in Planescape though.