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Attacking defenseless NPCs
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7627620" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Okay, so, your point is that players can't understand enough to make reasoned choices because the play loop is so fixed (who said this? Oh, no one, it's a strawman) that they can't ask questions and the DM will refuse to answer questions because, well, the play loop won't let them (again, strawman), but, nope, there aren't any jerks involved here.</p><p></p><p>This is even more hogwash. For one, you're only making this argument against goal and approach, when it's actually trivially true of ALL playstyles -- if you don't allow questions and create expectation mismatches, you will have problems. You've assumed that goal and approach is so locked in that this is more likely to happen than in other styles, when, in reality, the same types of decisions and fiat exists in other styles it just happens in a different place. Your argument is trivially true across all styles, but it's used as if it only applies to goal and approach or the play loop <em>that's in the PHB</em>. It really appears to be a motte argument because it's so trivially true -- bad play causes bad outcomes -- who could argue it. But your use of this only against one set of play is telling that it's not an honest criticism, it's just the retreat point when pressed on the more expansive against arguments you've floated (the bailey arguments).</p><p></p><p>So, then, let me attack the motte -- this argument is trivial. It's true of all play everywhere. It addresses NO points made in this thread, and certainly not by anyone describing the PHB's play loop as the PHB presents it. Or by anyone advancing goal and approach, who, if you actually read their posts, pretty much universally expound on how important it is to be clear as to what's at stake and what's going on in the scene. So much so that many of us have had to defend the openness of our information presentation as giving too much away. And, we all are very open about how it's very important to resolve any confusion and not play gotcha over a mis-match, so, clearly, your argument above doesn't apply to anyone in this thread advancing goal and approach. Nor is it a more valid argument against goal and approach than against any other playstyle. To sum up, I have no idea who you think you're lecturing on this trivially obvious point, but it's clear that you're advancing it not as a generally applicable statement but as a specific argument against the PHB's play loop (and goal and approach, obliquely), which is ludicrous, incorrect, and bordering on intellectually dishonest.</p><p></p><p>There, now that the motte is thoroughly dismantled, and we can safely discard this trivial argument as general and obvious and not specially more likely when using the PHB play loop than other loops, or in goal and approach as a style of using the PHB play loop, perhaps you'd like to reposition?</p><p></p><p>Again, nothing in the above in meant nor should be taken to imply that there's a better way to play. There <em>is </em>a better way to play, but everyone needs to find their own.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7627620, member: 16814"] Okay, so, your point is that players can't understand enough to make reasoned choices because the play loop is so fixed (who said this? Oh, no one, it's a strawman) that they can't ask questions and the DM will refuse to answer questions because, well, the play loop won't let them (again, strawman), but, nope, there aren't any jerks involved here. This is even more hogwash. For one, you're only making this argument against goal and approach, when it's actually trivially true of ALL playstyles -- if you don't allow questions and create expectation mismatches, you will have problems. You've assumed that goal and approach is so locked in that this is more likely to happen than in other styles, when, in reality, the same types of decisions and fiat exists in other styles it just happens in a different place. Your argument is trivially true across all styles, but it's used as if it only applies to goal and approach or the play loop [I]that's in the PHB[/I]. It really appears to be a motte argument because it's so trivially true -- bad play causes bad outcomes -- who could argue it. But your use of this only against one set of play is telling that it's not an honest criticism, it's just the retreat point when pressed on the more expansive against arguments you've floated (the bailey arguments). So, then, let me attack the motte -- this argument is trivial. It's true of all play everywhere. It addresses NO points made in this thread, and certainly not by anyone describing the PHB's play loop as the PHB presents it. Or by anyone advancing goal and approach, who, if you actually read their posts, pretty much universally expound on how important it is to be clear as to what's at stake and what's going on in the scene. So much so that many of us have had to defend the openness of our information presentation as giving too much away. And, we all are very open about how it's very important to resolve any confusion and not play gotcha over a mis-match, so, clearly, your argument above doesn't apply to anyone in this thread advancing goal and approach. Nor is it a more valid argument against goal and approach than against any other playstyle. To sum up, I have no idea who you think you're lecturing on this trivially obvious point, but it's clear that you're advancing it not as a generally applicable statement but as a specific argument against the PHB's play loop (and goal and approach, obliquely), which is ludicrous, incorrect, and bordering on intellectually dishonest. There, now that the motte is thoroughly dismantled, and we can safely discard this trivial argument as general and obvious and not specially more likely when using the PHB play loop than other loops, or in goal and approach as a style of using the PHB play loop, perhaps you'd like to reposition? Again, nothing in the above in meant nor should be taken to imply that there's a better way to play. There [I]is [/I]a better way to play, but everyone needs to find their own. [/QUOTE]
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