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<blockquote data-quote="Diirk" data-source="post: 4949540" data-attributes="member: 14476">Did you even look the rule up? Its not the rule for fighting stealthed enemies, its the rule for choosing targets fullstop.&quot;Choosing Targets...When you use a melee attack or a ranged attack, you can target a square instead of an enemy.&quot;It doesn't come under a header &quot;Fighting targets you can't see&quot;, it doesn't say &quot;When using a melee or ranged attack against a creature you can't see&quot;. It DOES say that you can target a square with a melee or ranged attack, and then it gives an example of an occasion this might be useful. Obviously if there's no creature there, you can't hit, but you can still target.It doesn't actually mention anything of the sort. The actual rule is 'Legitimate targets' and it says (in summary) in the first paragraph that effects that only occur when you hit a target or reduce it to 0 hp only function if its a meaningful threat. The second paragraph then goes on to state that powers that buff allies don't buff entire armies and are balanced around your 'allies' being a squad sized group.There is no mention whatsoever of powers that work regardless of hit or miss, and none of the things in this section actually apply to the powers under discussion. Sure you can rule 0, but you can rule 0 anything. That goes beyond the scope of rules discussions.I disagree; the rules make every suggestion that you can use the powers under discussion in this way, and while the DM is certainly allowed to say 'no I don't like that in this game', I think it would be him bending the rules in this case, not the player.Pg 40 of the DMG. Read it carefully. The so called 'Bag o' rats' rule doesn't apply to 'effect' powers, only to 'hit:' or 'trigger: when you reduce an opponent to 0 hp' (or presumably bloody, etc) powers.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Diirk, post: 4949540, member: 14476"] Did you even look the rule up? Its not the rule for fighting stealthed enemies, its the rule for choosing targets fullstop. "Choosing Targets ... When you use a melee attack or a ranged attack, you can target a square instead of an enemy." It doesn't come under a header "Fighting targets you can't see", it doesn't say "When using a melee or ranged attack against a creature you can't see". It DOES say that you can target a square with a melee or ranged attack, and then it gives an example of an occasion this might be useful. Obviously if there's no creature there, you can't hit, but you can still target. It doesn't actually mention anything of the sort. The actual rule is 'Legitimate targets' and it says (in summary) in the first paragraph that effects that only occur when you hit a target or reduce it to 0 hp only function if its a meaningful threat. The second paragraph then goes on to state that powers that buff allies don't buff entire armies and are balanced around your 'allies' being a squad sized group. There is no mention whatsoever of powers that work regardless of hit or miss, and none of the things in this section actually apply to the powers under discussion. Sure you can rule 0, but you can rule 0 anything. That goes beyond the scope of rules discussions. I disagree; the rules make every suggestion that you can use the powers under discussion in this way, and while the DM is certainly allowed to say 'no I don't like that in this game', I think it would be him bending the rules in this case, not the player. Pg 40 of the DMG. Read it carefully. The so called 'Bag o' rats' rule doesn't apply to 'effect' powers, only to 'hit:' or 'trigger: when you reduce an opponent to 0 hp' (or presumably bloody, etc) powers. [/QUOTE]

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