[AU] a new kind of toughness?

[Negative Zero]

what follows, is an idea i'm toying with for the first game i'll ever have run, an AU/DT campaign.

personally, i don't like the Toughness feat in stock DnD. nor do i like the Sturdy feat in AU and so i'm trying to make a more useful feat as i feel those are not feats that a player would chose on their own. here are my ideas so far:

Toughness
Benefit: This feat grants the character a full hit-die, for whatever class he levels-up in, when taken, (i.e. maximum hit points for that level) instead of a normal roll.
Special: This feat may not be taken at the same level that the Sturdy feat is gained, nor can it be taken more than once per level. Its effects stack.

Toughness, Improved
Prerequisite: Toughness
Benefit: Taking this feat grants the character half of any hit die rolled automatically, while he rolls normally for the remaning hit points at the level taken, and all susequent levels. For example; if the player normally gains a d8 for hit points, he would instead roll 4+d4+CON Bonus.

so, whaddaya think? too much? too weak? worthless? cool? modifications? ... anyone?

~NegZ

<EDIT>
clarifications added as per my responses below.

 

[Velmont]

Toughness:

It would be good for single class character, but what happen if I'm a Figther 4/Mage2? So I would suggest the hit dice depend on the type/subtype of the creature and not on the class, and to be equal for all, it should be something like maximum or half. And if you proceed with max, I would limit the feet to once.

Toughness, Improved:

Don't think it's a good choice, it would become a must for barbarian who depend more on HP, and any must is not good.

 

[Negative Zero]

Toughness: It would be good for single class character, but what happen if I'm a Figther 4/Mage2? ...

you get max hit die for whichever class you're going up in that level. if that was not clear i'll try to reword the feat to make that clear. so, are you saying that you don't think that max hit points is worth a feat? keep in mind that it is a pre-req for another more potent (IMO) feat.

Toughness, Improved ... it would become a must for barbarian who depend more on HP

it's not a must have now, the game is supposedly balanced with average hit points for every one. why would it become a must have? keep in mind that said Barbarian (and everyone else) needs to spend two feats for it.

also, (and this should have been more clear in the first post) these feats are primarily intended for my AU game.

~NegZ

 

[Velmont]

Ok, I'm not familiar with AU, so I may be wrong, and I didn't said full hit dice isn't worth it, I said if you choose full HD, to allow the feat once max, not up to three time.

For Improved, as I said, any human barbarian would take it at first level. Instead of aving 12+Con, you'll have 24+Con, and you'll finish with:
208+20*Con instead of 136+20*Con, a raise of 72 HP over the 20 level for these 2 feats, which is pretty too damn good to not having it. Just to compare it, it is the same amount that having average HP on d19...

That give me an idea that I feel a bit better. Have something like:
Toughness: 5hp.
Imp. Toughness: Raise your HD by 1 level (d4->d6->d8->d10->d12->d14(or d12+1))

But the final decision is to you (or your DM) and that's simply my opinion. Hope it will help you.

 

[Negative Zero]

Ok, I'm not familiar with AU, so I may be wrong, and I didn't said full hit dice isn't worth it, I said if you choose full HD, to allow the feat once max, not up to three time. ...

fair enuff, i've been considering changing that. either removing it, or making it once only. basically, if someone is dedicated to getting a ton of hit points to the exclusion of all else, then hey, go for it.

For Improved, as I said, any human barbarian would take it at first level. Instead of aving 12+Con, you'll have 24+Con ...

i think you may have misunderstood my post. Improved Toughness changes the way you roll for hit points, it doesn't give you more hit points than you could ordinarily gain (in fact, neither feats do). taking both feats at the same time would be sub-optimal at best, as the two feats offer different types of bonuses (which you will notice are incompatible with each other).

also, taking Toughness at first level practically wastes the feat because you're already getting max hit points. the only benefit to taking it then, is allowing you to take Improved Toughness earlier. i haven't yet decided if they should be allowed to be taken together (at the same level).

~NegZ

 

[Velmont]

Ok... Toughness give max HP instead of a dice roll... in that case, it seems pretty well balance...

For improved Toughness, does it apply only on the level taken or on all subsequent level too?

 

[Ubermeister Kevguy]

so, whaddaya think? too much? too weak? worthless? cool? modifications? ... anyone?

Hey! I'm anyone!
Okay, seriously, I agree most wholeheartedly that the core rules Toughness feat is a bit lame - pity the poor Dwarven Defender who needs to blow a feat on this puppy!
This is one approach that I haven't tried...
What I did was add the Constitution Modifier to the HP bonus given (in other words, 3+Con Mod HP Bonus)...this seemed balanced to me.

 

[Negative Zero]

greetings Sir Anyone, and welcome to the boards! yeah i'd thought of that one, but figured i'd try for additional ideas too.

... For improved Toughness, does it apply only on the level taken or on all subsequent level too?

it applies to all susequent levels. (i edited the first post to indicate that).

~NegZ

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Toughness
Benefit: This feat grants the character a full hit-die, for whatever class he levels-up in, when taken, (i.e. maximum hit points for that level) instead of a normal roll.
Special: This feat may not be taken at the same level that the Sturdy feat is gained, nor can it be taken more than once per level. In addition, it can never be taken more than three times over a character's career (within this specification, its effects stack).

This feat is not going to give any kind of an advantage over Sturdy to the witch, runethane, magister, greenbond or akashic, all of whom get d6 hit dice. You will roll average (3.5), so this would give you +3 at any given level. Sturdy gets you more. Even mageblades, unfettereds and oathsworns as d8 classes do not gain much benefit.

Now, as a jumping off point to the next feat, I can see taking it, but I think that a feat that doesn't have a consistent benefit needs work. Also, please see below.

Toughness, Improved
Prerequisite: Toughness
Benefit: Taking this feat grants the character half of any hit die rolled automatically, while he rolls normally for the remaning hit points at the level taken, and all susequent levels. For example; if the player rolls a d8 for hit points, he would roll 4+d4+CON Bonus.

Now, am I seeing this right? You get 1/2 your hit dice every subsequent level? This also doesn't scale comfortably for me. A warmain who took these two feats at first level is going to get waaay too many hit points quickly. Let's assume a warmain with a 17 Con (ignoring first level). Each level it's 6+3+1d12 for hp. That means that they get an average of 15 hp?

I went back and I think that it's possible to parse it differently. (I think what you intended.) It's going to give you 1/2 of the hit die plus the Con plus the hit die. That still gives you an increase that scales better for high hit die classes than low hit die classes. Champions and most Totem Warriors will get +5 for taking the feat. The Warmain will get +6. It benefits those three classes. The rest will get +4 (3 more classes), which is no better than Sturdy, which can be taken multiple times, or +3, the remaining 5, who are worse off than just taking Sturdy.

What is it you want to do with the feat? Just give more hit points? In that case I'd suggest just writing in a Sturdier feat that gives triple Con or +6. (I'm not recommending this in general for an AU campaign, but I'm trying to help Negative Zero since he's already got this approach in mind.)

 

[Velmont]

greetings Sir Anyone, and welcome to the boards! yeah i'd thought of that one, but figured i'd try for additional ideas too.

it applies to all susequent levels. (i edited the first post to indicate that).

~NegZ

And as I said, if I do a Human Barbarian and take the two feats at level 1, my average roll will give me around 196HP + 20*CON at level 20 instead of 136+ 20*CON, which is a net gain of 60HP over 20 level, or 3 hp per level, which is equal to one old toughness each level... for two feats, I got 20 feats, even if it is the lame toughness, toughness 20 times is pretty strong. Don't you find that too strong?