Auto-failure on a Nat 1/Auto-success on a Nat 20 - How Often Does This Come Up?

[FireLance]

Perhaps it's because I tend to pit the PCs against level-appropriate challenges as a DM, and because I also tend to face level-appropriate challenges as a player, but this rule has almost never come up at the table.

If I roll a natural 1, I almost always would have failed anyway without this rule being enforced. If I roll a natural 20, I almost always would have succeeded anyway without this rule being enforced.

So, why should we continue to have this rule in the first place? What would we lose if it was removed?

 

[MerricB]

Comes up a lot in my high-level games, and my regular level games when the Orc Archers shoot at the heavily armoured PCs.

Cheers!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Perhaps it's because I tend to pit the PCs against level-appropriate challenges as a DM, and because I also tend to face level-appropriate challenges as a player, but this rule has almost never come up at the table.

If I roll a natural 1, I almost always would have failed anyway without this rule being enforced. If I roll a natural 20, I almost always would have succeeded anyway without this rule being enforced.

So, why should we continue to have this rule in the first place? What would we lose if it was removed?

This rule comes up when a group is either up against extremely easy/hard enemies, or when someone in the group gets ridiculously high/low to-hits/AC compared to everyone else. I've mentioned many times that I despise how this rule makes a Fighter10 with +15 to hit with his Crossbow identical (in chance to hit and damage) to a feeble shaky epileptic (Dex 1) old man with cataracts shooting from 10 range increments away at a total of -29 to hit with his own Crossbow if the enemy is AC 35 or higher. I always use telescoping dice rolls to eliminate this annoying edge effect.

 

[Victim]

Massive Damage Saves. Some items also have comparatively low DCs such that success even on a 1 would normally be pretty reasonable.

Also, situations where you have gobs of weak guys vs powerful folks. A large number of weak enemies can easily be of sufficient difficulty to challenge higher level PCs.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I've seen it come up a lot, particularly at high levels when the attack and save bonuses between the classes grow large. It might be easy for the fighter to hit, but the wizard needs that natural 20 to have a chance. It might be easy for the monk to save, but the fighter's relying on sheer dumb luck. And it means even the figher in example one, or the monk in example two, can't afford to get too cocky, since there's always that one chance in 20 of failure...

I'd argue vehemently against any removal of this rule.

 

[FireLance]

Thanks for the responses so far. Before we proceed any further, perhaps it would be good to get some specifics sorted out.

When you say it comes up, do you mean:

1. The PC/NPC/monster encounters a situation where he will only fail on a natural 1 or succeed on a natural 20; or

2. The PC/NPC/monster encounters a situation where he will only fail on a natural 1 or succeed on a natural 20, rolls the dice and actually gets the natural 1/natural 20.

For the record, I'm referring to (2), not (1).

And how often is often? Once per game session? Once per encounter? Once per round?

 

[MerricB]

Well, it's random, but it actually happening can come up several times a session if I have orcs shooting arrows at the AC 32 dwarf.

The natural 1 missing comes up several times a session in my Age of Worms game - 20th level PCs, you understand.

Cheers!

 

[S'mon]

Comes up a lot in my high-level games, and my regular level games when the Orc Archers shoot at the heavily armoured PCs.

Cheers!

Yup - I see it in use all the time where the NPCs are much weaker than the PCs. My game couldn't function without it!

Edit: It usually comes up with missile fire - 100 orcs vs the AC 25 PC - or in lengthy melees: "Okay over the next 10 rounds you're attacked 80 times, that's 4 hits..."

Edit: Re the old man at extreme range etc, if range/cover mods alone would take the to-hit for missile fire above 20 I'll generally say auto-miss or reduce the number of hits below 1 in 20. Obvious example is firing from arrow slits.

 

[FireLance]

Well, it's random, but it actually happening can come up several times a session if I have orcs shooting arrows at the AC 32 dwarf.

The natural 1 missing comes up several times a session in my Age of Worms game - 20th level PCs, you understand.

Cheers!

It looks like you and your players roll the d20 a lot more times per session than my group. Statisticially speaking, in order to get 5 natural 20s, you'd have to roll the d20 about 100 times per session.

However, there's the other aspect of the question: how would the game change if the characters couldn't automatically succeed on a natural 20, and wouldn't automatically fail on a natural 1? What if the orc archers had no chance of hitting your AC 20 dwarf at all? What if your PCs could automatically hit with certain attacks? How would this change the game?

Mouseferatu mentioned that it prevented the PCs from getting too cocky. Why is this a bad thing?

 

[MerricB]

It looks like you and your players roll the d20 a lot more times per session than my group. Statisticially speaking, in order to get 5 natural 20s, you'd have to roll the d20 about 100 times per session.

Martin's fighter 20 gets 6 attacks per round. (Slashing flurry PH2; haste). A lot of our combats go for about 5 rounds, and we had 6 combats last session. So, there are several natural 1s or 20s coming up.

Yesterday, I had 8 Orc Archers firing at the PCs with Rapid-shot; they got 3 attacks per round, and normally needed natural 20s to hit. As the party were being delayed by flesh golems, I got about 4 rounds off - so 96 attacks, or about 5.3 natural 20s.

However, there's the other aspect of the question: how would the game change if the characters couldn't automatically succeed on a natural 20, and wouldn't automatically fail on a natural 1? What if the orc archers had no chance of hitting your AC 20 dwarf at all? What if your PCs could automatically hit with certain attacks? How would this change the game?

It'd mean that swarms of smaller guys couldn't hit you. It'd also mean that you'd really have to tone down the power curve for gaining levels. Adam's dwarf has an AC somewhere in the mid-30s at level 11. Hitting him is a pain. (I personally think the curve is too steep, myself, but 3e would need a severe redesign to fix it - and I'm still having fun, even with the 20th level Age of Worms game).

Cheers!