Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Rocket your D&D 5E and Level Up: Advanced 5E games into space! Alpha Star Magazine Is Launching... Right Now!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 934702" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>You cannot wish for anything you want and expect to recieve it. It is somewhat ridiculous to discuss a spell combo in terms of house rules and expect to recieve useful advice on the effects. Wish does not involve a Wisdom check, nor is thier a limit on wishing for the same thing in a certain time period. Other than the dubious wish request, as far as I can tell the rest of the combo is legal in every respect. What would you expect of 45th level characters anyway?</p><p></p><p>The wish usage is utterly broken. When adjudicating a wish I take into account two things:</p><p></p><p>1) Who is granting the wish.</p><p>2) How reasonable is the request for a 9th level spell.</p><p></p><p>The first point is important for adjudicating unsafe wishes. If the granter of the wish is basically hostile to the caster, an unsafe wish will _always_ be interpreted in the most malicious way possible. </p><p></p><p>The caster is assumed not to be hostile to himself, so if you are the 'granter' of your own wish the wish is always interpreted by me in the spirit that the wish was made. If in your cosmology all wishes are granted by spirits, and the 5000 XP paid is merely the payment to those spirits and not the energy that powers the wish, then obviously how the wish is going to be interpreted depends on how the spell caster stands in relation to his patron powers. </p><p></p><p>But that's another story. For now, we will assume that despite the 'unsafe' nature of this wish, the wish won't go disastrously wrong because it is the caster who is powering the wish and not some genie or demon bound to serve him. </p><p></p><p>The second area of interest in who is granting the request is the power of the spirit in question. The lower the rank of the spirit, the more likely the wish is to run out of power before fully completing the request. In other words, just because you wished for something and the interpretation of the spell is benevolent, does not mean that you will fully get what you wanted. You could wish 'I wish to own all of the world's wealth', but that doesn't mean that a mere 9th level spell has the power to grant you such a request. Even a greater deity would be unable to fulfill such a request -- too much of the world's wealth is owned indirectly by other greater deities and powers which he cannot balk. And, even if it wasn't there is a limit to how much he can accomplish even with multiple applications of wish. You could wish, "I wish I was a god.", but that doesn't mean a 9th level spell has the power to grant you a Divine Rank. Is not the power of a divine rank worth more than 5000xp? </p><p></p><p>So, if one of my players wished ""I wish to have all of my spells restored as if I had re-memorized them, although I do not actually take the time to do so; I am simply able to cast as normal the spells I have already cast today." I would make two comments. FIrst, that all wishes really should contain just a single clause, otherwise you are trying to get two wishes out of one. Therefore, I'm ignoring everything that follows after the semi-colon, BUT that because the request is being interpreted benovolently that it won't alter the meaning of the spell.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, I would try as best as I was able to fulfill the request "I wish to have all of my spells restored as if I had re-memorized them, although I do not actually take the time to do so."</p><p></p><p>My first recourse would be to look at other spells and see if any of them allow you to rememorize spells. And indeed, there are spells that allow you to rememorize spells: Rary's Mmenomic Enhancer being one example.</p><p></p><p>From the SRD:</p><p></p><p>Mnemonic Enhancer</p><p>"Transmutation</p><p>Level: Wiz 4</p><p>Components: V, S, M, F</p><p>Casting Time: 10 minutes</p><p>Range: Personal</p><p>Target: The character</p><p>Duration: Instantaneous </p><p>The character prepares or retains additional spells. In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast).</p><p>Pick one of these two versions:</p><p>Prepare: the character prepares up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as one-half level for these purposes. The character prepares and casts these spells normally. </p><p>Retain: the character retains any spell up to 3rd level that the character had cast up to 1 round before the character started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to the character's mind. </p><p>Focus: Worth at least 50 gp."</p><p></p><p>"Lucubration</p><p>Transmutation</p><p>Level: Wiz 6</p><p>Components: V, S</p><p>Casting Time: 1 action</p><p>Range: Personal</p><p>Target: The character</p><p>Duration: Instantaneous</p><p>The character instantly recalls any one spell of up to 5th level that the character has used during the past 24 hours. The spell must have been actually cast during that time period. The recalled spell is stored in the character's mind as through prepared in the normal fashion. If the recalled spell requires material components, the character must provide these. The recovered spell is not usable until the material components are available."</p><p></p><p>I'm going to state this in all caps because it is very important. WISH IS A 9TH LEVEL SPELL. WISH IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN OTHER 9TH LEVEL SPELLS, IT IS SIMPLY MUCH MORE FLEXIBLE. WHEN A WISH IS INTERPRETED THE EFFECTS OF THE SPELL, WHETHER BENEVOLENT OR MALIGN, SHOULD BE APPROPRIATE IN POWER FOR A 9TH LEVEL SPELL. Wish is not all powerful. If you want effects that are more powerful than a 9th level spell is capable of, you should use a spell that is higher than 9th level. Therefore, the appropriate interpretation of this wish is that the character recieves effects equivelent to what would be appropriate were there a 9th level spell that allowed quick spell recall. My first inclination as a DM would be therefore to allow the character to recall any combination of spells of any level totalling 9 spell levels (with cantrips counting for as 1/2 level), or any combination of spells that are 5th level or less totaling 15 spell levels or any combination of spells that are 3rd level or less totalling 27 spell levels, or some similar effect. I'd allow the player to choose the one he most liked, after all, he is the one making the wish. Where the wish being granted by another being that didn't particularly like the caster, but wasn't necessarily hostile to him, I'd probably stick to the most limited interpretation (the first one). </p><p></p><p>However, it is clearly beyond the power of a 9th level spell to duplicate the effects of more than one 9th level spell, THEREFORE it ought to be equally clear that it cannot recall multiple 9th level spells to the mind of the wisher no matter how it is worded. The best the spell can do is _try_ to fulfill that request, but it will clearly fall way short and run out of power before the spell intention can be completed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 934702, member: 4937"] You cannot wish for anything you want and expect to recieve it. It is somewhat ridiculous to discuss a spell combo in terms of house rules and expect to recieve useful advice on the effects. Wish does not involve a Wisdom check, nor is thier a limit on wishing for the same thing in a certain time period. Other than the dubious wish request, as far as I can tell the rest of the combo is legal in every respect. What would you expect of 45th level characters anyway? The wish usage is utterly broken. When adjudicating a wish I take into account two things: 1) Who is granting the wish. 2) How reasonable is the request for a 9th level spell. The first point is important for adjudicating unsafe wishes. If the granter of the wish is basically hostile to the caster, an unsafe wish will _always_ be interpreted in the most malicious way possible. The caster is assumed not to be hostile to himself, so if you are the 'granter' of your own wish the wish is always interpreted by me in the spirit that the wish was made. If in your cosmology all wishes are granted by spirits, and the 5000 XP paid is merely the payment to those spirits and not the energy that powers the wish, then obviously how the wish is going to be interpreted depends on how the spell caster stands in relation to his patron powers. But that's another story. For now, we will assume that despite the 'unsafe' nature of this wish, the wish won't go disastrously wrong because it is the caster who is powering the wish and not some genie or demon bound to serve him. The second area of interest in who is granting the request is the power of the spirit in question. The lower the rank of the spirit, the more likely the wish is to run out of power before fully completing the request. In other words, just because you wished for something and the interpretation of the spell is benevolent, does not mean that you will fully get what you wanted. You could wish 'I wish to own all of the world's wealth', but that doesn't mean that a mere 9th level spell has the power to grant you such a request. Even a greater deity would be unable to fulfill such a request -- too much of the world's wealth is owned indirectly by other greater deities and powers which he cannot balk. And, even if it wasn't there is a limit to how much he can accomplish even with multiple applications of wish. You could wish, "I wish I was a god.", but that doesn't mean a 9th level spell has the power to grant you a Divine Rank. Is not the power of a divine rank worth more than 5000xp? So, if one of my players wished ""I wish to have all of my spells restored as if I had re-memorized them, although I do not actually take the time to do so; I am simply able to cast as normal the spells I have already cast today." I would make two comments. FIrst, that all wishes really should contain just a single clause, otherwise you are trying to get two wishes out of one. Therefore, I'm ignoring everything that follows after the semi-colon, BUT that because the request is being interpreted benovolently that it won't alter the meaning of the spell. Therefore, I would try as best as I was able to fulfill the request "I wish to have all of my spells restored as if I had re-memorized them, although I do not actually take the time to do so." My first recourse would be to look at other spells and see if any of them allow you to rememorize spells. And indeed, there are spells that allow you to rememorize spells: Rary's Mmenomic Enhancer being one example. From the SRD: Mnemonic Enhancer "Transmutation Level: Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Personal Target: The character Duration: Instantaneous The character prepares or retains additional spells. In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast). Pick one of these two versions: Prepare: the character prepares up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as one-half level for these purposes. The character prepares and casts these spells normally. Retain: the character retains any spell up to 3rd level that the character had cast up to 1 round before the character started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to the character's mind. Focus: Worth at least 50 gp." "Lucubration Transmutation Level: Wiz 6 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 action Range: Personal Target: The character Duration: Instantaneous The character instantly recalls any one spell of up to 5th level that the character has used during the past 24 hours. The spell must have been actually cast during that time period. The recalled spell is stored in the character's mind as through prepared in the normal fashion. If the recalled spell requires material components, the character must provide these. The recovered spell is not usable until the material components are available." I'm going to state this in all caps because it is very important. WISH IS A 9TH LEVEL SPELL. WISH IS NOT MORE POWERFUL THAN OTHER 9TH LEVEL SPELLS, IT IS SIMPLY MUCH MORE FLEXIBLE. WHEN A WISH IS INTERPRETED THE EFFECTS OF THE SPELL, WHETHER BENEVOLENT OR MALIGN, SHOULD BE APPROPRIATE IN POWER FOR A 9TH LEVEL SPELL. Wish is not all powerful. If you want effects that are more powerful than a 9th level spell is capable of, you should use a spell that is higher than 9th level. Therefore, the appropriate interpretation of this wish is that the character recieves effects equivelent to what would be appropriate were there a 9th level spell that allowed quick spell recall. My first inclination as a DM would be therefore to allow the character to recall any combination of spells of any level totalling 9 spell levels (with cantrips counting for as 1/2 level), or any combination of spells that are 5th level or less totaling 15 spell levels or any combination of spells that are 3rd level or less totalling 27 spell levels, or some similar effect. I'd allow the player to choose the one he most liked, after all, he is the one making the wish. Where the wish being granted by another being that didn't particularly like the caster, but wasn't necessarily hostile to him, I'd probably stick to the most limited interpretation (the first one). However, it is clearly beyond the power of a 9th level spell to duplicate the effects of more than one 9th level spell, THEREFORE it ought to be equally clear that it cannot recall multiple 9th level spells to the mind of the wisher no matter how it is worded. The best the spell can do is _try_ to fulfill that request, but it will clearly fall way short and run out of power before the spell intention can be completed. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Auto-Quicken Spell + Multispell + Time Stop + Wish = Cheese (Time Stop+Wish Argument)
Top