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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 935850" data-attributes="member: 4937">"<sarcasm>It's not! Holy hand-grenades, Batman. I'm making me a spell that grants inherent bonuses to ability scores and ditch the XP cost.</sarcasm>"You could create a 9th level spell that granted inherent bonuses to ability scores, it would simply need to have a similar XP cost or a non-permanent duration.It is worth noting that compared to the normal creation cost of an item (in XP), wish is not very efficient.  The most valuable item you can safely create with a wish is worth 15,000 gp.   Such an item normally costs 3,000 XP to make.  Therefore it is reasonable to suggest that by comparison with other more specialized means of spending XP wish is inefficient."Um, ok, then what are we paying the XP cost for?"You might as well as why 'Animate Dead' has an XP cost even though its only a 5th level spell.  Is 'Animate Dead' more powerful than other 5th level spells?  Would it be fair to have a 7th level version of animate dead that didn't have an XP cost?  Is the XP cost actually tied directly to the power or level of the spell?"True, Wish is very flexible, but if you want flexibility, then limited wish is what you are looking for."Well, arguably wish is more flexible.  But, I suspect you mean that wish is too flexible for reutine use.  But that is also beside the point.   Wish is more flexible and more powerful.   But its also a 9th level spell, so what do you expect?"For a 9th level spell called Wish, which *costs* 5000 XP just to cast, it should be remarkably more powerful than 9th level spells that do not have an XP cost."Ok, I'll buy that.   So lets see, wish is a spell that generates permenate effects, allows spellcasters to cast spells that they do not know, allows spellcasters to cast spells that they have not memorized, allows spellcasters to cast spells that they cannot cast, allows arcane spellcasters to heal or revive the dead as if they were a divine spellcaster, undo the effects of virtually any other spell, apply metamagic feats that they do not have, apply metamagic feats to spells spontaneously, produces items on demand of up to 10,000gp value, create items without creation feats and without spending time and materials on them, and alter past reality up to several seconds into the past.   I would say that without even ammending that list, that it is a spell that lets you do some pretty remarkable things."I still don't know about this. Wish does things other spells just don't do."Yes, and I just listed them.Please note that duplicating the effects of even _one_ other 9th level arcane spell is a 'unsafe' request.  Normally, wish will only duplicate the effects of a spell of 8th level or below.  That isn't to say that wish can't necessarily do it, but that doing so by inference strains the power of the spell.    Doing things that are clearly beyond the power of a 9th level spell and which are not listed as a standard effect of the spell ought to be _clearly_ to any PC a misuse of the spell."I just can't see myself denying such a Wish, which would probably be made during a battle or in one of the darkest moments for the party."I see.  You grant Wish's based off whether or not you feel that it is helpful to the story.  If you think that the wish is a real need of the party, then the wish is granted.  If you think that the wish is not helpful to the story, that is to say in your opinion 'abusive' then it isn't granted.How hopelessly arbitrary.  How are your players supposed to know what you as a DM are going to do?   How are your players supposed to know whether or not even attempting the wish is going to be worth it, or whether or not you are going to nerf them because in your opinion the wish is something that you should deny?  At least under my interpretation, a player can know basically what he can expect based on how spells work - including those published in other sources but not existing in my campaign.Third edition is very clear on how wish works.   It lists all the generous and nifty things that wish can do to get you out of a jam.  It suggests that it can do other things in line with those effects, but (bold text added):"You may wish for greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous.  Such a wish gives you the oppurtunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely.  (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)   For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly teleported to the precence of the staff's current owner.  Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisoned in a hidden extradimensional space (as in imprisonment), where you could "live" indefinately."Note that ALL of the perverted effects of unfulfilled spells are in line with the power and effects of other 9th level spells, and/or they are literally the application of another 9th level spell.   I don't feel that this is remotely accidental.</blockquote>

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