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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 5979303" data-attributes="member: 6681948">Within that setting, I'd say most potential targets would be expecting an attack.&nbsp; Even potential allies are probably, like the PC's, walking around with weapons at the ready and suspicious of hostile intent, so they will be wary and cannot be surprised.&nbsp;The target PC, however, may be a special case.&nbsp; He probably wasn't expecting the attack, and may have been surprised.&nbsp; I agree with the opposed Bluff check to pull off the surprise action - it should not be automatic.&nbsp; It doesn't sound like the characters are subtle.&nbsp; If he is trying to conceal his intentions, that works both ways.&nbsp; The other PC's would also need a successful Sense Motive check to figure out their teammate is going to attack in time to also benefit from the surprise.&nbsp;If that's the rule established, however, the PC's should understand that this works both ways.&nbsp; NPC's can also Bluff to achieve surprise if they decide to attack.&nbsp; I would expect others in that environment to be wary and have weapons at the ready - in fact, NOT doing so might be more suspicious.&nbsp; They can't be the only chaotics in the dungeon.&nbsp;Finally, I'm with the &quot;randomly attacking people you are talking with&quot; is not just Chaotic, but also Evil, camp.&nbsp; In the specific case, they had a reason for attacking - belief the target was a dangerous enemy.&nbsp; Maybe this isn't a general approach.&nbsp;Finally, you may want to point out to them that, if we leave matters as this one instance was played (ie they all got a surprise round) would stand as a precedent that an adversary conversing with the PC's before attacking also gets a full surprise round for himself and all his allies against the PC's.&nbsp; We've even established it works against PC's, since it was a PC who was surprised in that encounter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 5979303, member: 6681948"] Within that setting, I'd say most potential targets would be expecting an attack. Even potential allies are probably, like the PC's, walking around with weapons at the ready and suspicious of hostile intent, so they will be wary and cannot be surprised. The target PC, however, may be a special case. He probably wasn't expecting the attack, and may have been surprised. I agree with the opposed Bluff check to pull off the surprise action - it should not be automatic. It doesn't sound like the characters are subtle. If he is trying to conceal his intentions, that works both ways. The other PC's would also need a successful Sense Motive check to figure out their teammate is going to attack in time to also benefit from the surprise. If that's the rule established, however, the PC's should understand that this works both ways. NPC's can also Bluff to achieve surprise if they decide to attack. I would expect others in that environment to be wary and have weapons at the ready - in fact, NOT doing so might be more suspicious. They can't be the only chaotics in the dungeon. Finally, I'm with the "randomly attacking people you are talking with" is not just Chaotic, but also Evil, camp. In the specific case, they had a reason for attacking - belief the target was a dangerous enemy. Maybe this isn't a general approach. Finally, you may want to point out to them that, if we leave matters as this one instance was played (ie they all got a surprise round) would stand as a precedent that an adversary conversing with the PC's before attacking also gets a full surprise round for himself and all his allies against the PC's. We've even established it works against PC's, since it was a PC who was surprised in that encounter. [/QUOTE]

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