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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kaomera" data-source="post: 3178616" data-attributes="member: 38357">IMHO, yes. If you have not made that DC 40 Spot check to pinpoint the foe, you're just swinging wildly. If the invisible enemy is going to allow you to do so when you are right in front of it (within 5') without deciding to force the situation itself (by attacking), then you may make your attack before normal initiative. And if you hit you, at least, are no longer surprised. Choosing not to act is the same (in this case) as forfeiting it's action in the surprise round; the opponent should not (IMHO) get the added advantage of getting to see what the initiative count is going to look like before deciding how to react to the PCs, and the PC is still just swinging wildly, not making a deliberate attack against a specific opponent. It's like stepping on a pressure plate and triggering a trap... Those scything blades don't roll initiative, and you don't get a chance to sunder them before they can make their attack (at least IMC).Now, if the enemy sees you walk up to within 5' (and can't move away without giving away it's location), it may well decide to strike you first. That would call for a surprise round, roll initiative, Listen check to react, all that good stuff.Let's say that you've got a situation where a Paladin has detected overwhelming Evil within 60'. He's stunned or a moment and when the commotion ends he warns the rest of the party. The guy in the chain shirt with the morningstar says "I shall cast a spell to see if I cannot pinpoint the fiend!", chants a bit, does his little dance, and >whoosh< puts his Fireball (with a Sudden Widen, since he's a 15th-level Warmage)  down the corridor. (Assume that the enemy has no reason to suspect this guy isn't a Cleric casting another Detect Magic, and for whatever nefarious reason isn't just attacking immediately.) Now who gets the surprise round?I'd say no-one does. The PCs have not located their opponent, and the enemy is not choosing to make an attack against them.</blockquote>

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