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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 8489981" data-attributes="member: 45197">Hiya!First.., [USER=4348]@GreyLord[/USER] ... O_O Last time I checked there was only PDF of this, no PoD. Certainly no "Colour Hardback" option! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Still, I recommend checking Dark Dungeons anyway. It really is a nice little "retro-clone", and I actually prefer it's handling of how to determine ToHit v AC.Second... [don's Ye Olde Grognard Helmet of Nostalgia]    Yuppers. Back in my day, it took YEARS to get to level 9...which was a heroic task! It wasn't "expected" that PC's would get to level 2, let alone level 9. I remember Gary stating (in a Dragon Article, iirc, maybe Dragon's "Sage Advice" column in it) that he would expect that a group playing weekly, for about 6 to 8 hours (a 'typical amount of time'), should take about a year. After that, about 2 levels PER YEAR of play, depending on Player 'skill' and PC Class. That level of advancement fits perfectly in line with my experience...if a bit slow. We would play for 8 to 10 hours, sometimes twice a week. Summer vacation...skies the limit! Anyhoo... it took us about a year to get our PC's to between level 9 and 10. Then 2 levels per year. It took me 6 years of a silly amount of time to get my highest level PC ever, "Denakhan the Arch-Mage", to 20th level. The two other main PC's played by my friends were both fighters; Level 22 and Level "15" (but he DID get to level 21...then had a REALLY bad fight against a Vampire). Last we played, he was still 15th and looking for a Cleric with Restoration to get back his levels. Undead in earlier editions was like "Hardcore Mode"! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />That said...the "expectations and goals" of the Players of the game has changed rather significantly over the decades. Before, and this is ALL just my experience, the "goal" of the game was to just play the game and see IF you can survive. The expectation was that you would eventually die in the attempt...the trick was to get to a level high enough where death was more of an inconvenience. Once you hit that, then it was a matter of always trying to have that "back door" from death. Of course, there WERE limits (ex: Resurrection Survival rolls, death from massive damage, Save vs. Death, Poisons where if you fail, you die, the Disintegration spell was actually "POOF! You're dead!", etc).Todays game though? Getting to level 20 and being heroic the entire way is the expectation, not the exception. Players got upset in 1e when they lost a character that they couldn't get "raised". But, they started again and were proud of getting that PC to level 6. Now they can do it again with a new PC, level 1, and try and get farther than level 6. THAT was the "mechanical goal", for the most part. Nowadays though...a Player looses a PC and they get upset...but not because they just lost a character that couldn't get raised. It's because their expectations were not met; they EXPECTED to be able to play that PC up to level 20. But they "DM let them die", and not they have to.... start a new PC at the same level or maybe one level lower (I believe that is the general consensus and the results of many a poll I've seen asking what level a 'new' PC starts). Tell them they have to start at 1st Level, or even 3rd? Ooooohhh man! Watch out! Oh, and expect to not have Players.[/doff's Ye Olde Grognard Helmet of Nostalgia]Bottom line: Expectations of WHY you are playing the game and the goals of playing a character has changed drastically. I'd also say that the type of person Playing the game is also different. Probably why there is still a lot of contention between "Old School gaming" and "New School gaming". I don't see that changing for at least another couple decades until all us Old Timers finally kick the bucket and make our way to our respective Alignment-oriented Outer Plane. Personally, I'm hoping for Gladsheim...but I'll probably end up on Concordant Opposition.^_^Paul L. Ming</blockquote>

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