Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Enchanted Trinkets Complete--a hardcover book containing over 500 magic items for your D&D games!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Background Magic
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6643036" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I agree that there is quite a bit of magic which D&D has not traditionally concerned itself with since the original magical spell lists were focused pretty narrowly on, "Things that might be useful for adventurers in a dungeon.", and IMO worse, balanced on the assumption that a spells level was more or less directly related to its utility in that circumstance. </p><p></p><p>But keeping oneself dry in a light rain with a magical umbrella of force seems to me to be a perfectly valid use of the prestidigitation cantrip and therefore requires no special spell. I suppose, "Keeps you dry in a hurricane.", might be beyond its ability but I don't think the world demands such spell exist, as you could just stay indoors and powerful mages have access to things like telekinetic sphere if they really need it.</p><p></p><p>And the example spell to me nears and blurs the line between 'best implemented as a spell' and 'best implemented as an unusual magical item'. There is after all no real limitation on what a miscellaneous magical item can do except the DM's judgment. </p><p></p><p>There is therefore a bit of necessary metagaming going on here on the part of the GM. You are in essence asking, "What permanent effects do I need to discount the cost of sufficiently so that these effects could be more ubiquitous and counteract the effects of the ubiquitous short term magic that I desire to have in the game for the sake of adventuring play?" In the case of someone with the resources of a King, potentially fortifying his residence for generation after generation, it's not clear that this qualifies as an area where logic necessitates that you have to do this. Even if spells with royal blood as components don't exist, the King can afford to create some defenses. It's not his royal palace that is really the concern here, but the home of the average middle class merchant, a coastal patrol boat, or a remote border fort. Is magic available to protect them, and if so from what? </p><p></p><p>The biggest problem is spells that make life very problematic if ubiquitous counter-measures don't exist. High on the list are:</p><p></p><p>1) Invisibility: There are insufficient means of security against this spell.</p><p>2) Fireball and Wall of Fire: The damage of these spells isn't particularly import, but the ability of a spell to start fires has a huge importance in a world were wood is the primary and always necessary building material. Additionally, fireball raises questions about the ability of heavy infantry units like the Phalanx or Maniple to function <em>unless the rules actually provide such formations protection from such spells</em>. </p><p>3) Fool's Gold and economically impacting illusion magic generally</p><p></p><p>Less impactful but still important spells to think about:</p><p></p><p>4) Teleport. Import is huge, but spell is rare and those likely to need to have counters could find ways.</p><p>5) Charm Person and mind control magic generally. Import is huge, but spell is detectable through ordinary application of skill and some counter magic exists.</p><p>6) Create and fabricate spells, including wall spells with permanent duration. Less an example of a spell that needs a counter measure as spells where the non-dungeon impact wasn't well considered when balancing them. As written these can become economy breaking unless care is taken, particularly if turned into magical items, which they can at quite low level. A good example of an item whose importance in your game world can't be underestimated is a Lyre of Building, which is vastly undercosted relative to its economic impact. In general, magic items based on these spells and possibly the spells themselves are probably too available if you want to maintain a low magic feel.</p><p>7) Teleport Circle: Yes, it's a 9th level spell, but as written this spell completely changes the foundation of your world, permanently making points an arbitrary distance apart adjacent and rendering geography as such irrelevant. </p><p></p><p>For items #1-#3 particularly, my approach is append defensive spells with a note indicating that the duration of the spell is permanent if a small amount of XP is invested at the time of the spells casting. There are precedents. Magic Mouth provides a good template for what defensive magic should look like, and earlier versions of the spell allowed them to be cast with a 'Detect' spell that allowed them to trigger on detect (think detect charm, detect evil, detect invisibility, etc.) and Continual Flame which allows for a permanent effect that is much cheaper than normal for creating a permanent effect through magic items of the permanency spell. Note the Continual Flame is probably the most impactful spell in the SRD in terms of how it changes the world, as it makes light cheap enough that street lamps are available to any city and any member of the middle class could light their study or workshop to allow for working at night.</p><p></p><p>So high on my list would be:</p><p></p><p>1) Improved magic mouth that is permanent (for a small XP cost) and not merely permanent until discharged, and which can be given sensory ability by casting a 'detect' spell on it. These produce very high quality magical alarms and are particularly effective against otherwise difficult problems for low level characters like shapechanged foes, illusions and invisibility. One can easily imagine scales enspelled with such a spell and 'detect magic' or 'detect illusion' as rather ubiquitous trade items produced in mass quantity and owned by any self-respecting merchant. The applications of such a spell are almost infinite, the spell reasonably is 3rd level based on existing effects, and so guarantees that however common low level magic is, the counter to such magic is equally common. </p><p>2) A permanent ward that protects an object from burning available as a 3rd level spell or lower.</p><p>3) A permanent means of increasing an objects hardness and hit points available as a 3rd level spell or lower.</p><p>4) A permanent version of the alarm spell.</p><p>5) An improved version of arcane lock with a programmable bypass (only opens for those that say a certain word, only opens for those carrying a specific item, etc.)</p><p></p><p>Some of the above could potentially be implemented as magic items (particularly the permanent alarm) and perhaps some are to increase durability, but I don't think that such spells are really beyond what existing spells suggest is possible.</p><p></p><p>It should be noted that the most powerful defensive spell in the game is glyph of warding, as it has pretty much all the features we'd want in a defensive spell. It's permanent, it is available at relatively low level, it has a programmable trigger, and it has a customizable effect. Any defensive magic lacking these features is basically unusable, as offensive magic will always be cheaper and more effective. (If you don't have such effects, all you can manage for defense is a rapid reaction force armed with offensive magic.) The only problem with glyph of warding is that there is no arcane equivalent.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6643036, member: 4937"] I agree that there is quite a bit of magic which D&D has not traditionally concerned itself with since the original magical spell lists were focused pretty narrowly on, "Things that might be useful for adventurers in a dungeon.", and IMO worse, balanced on the assumption that a spells level was more or less directly related to its utility in that circumstance. But keeping oneself dry in a light rain with a magical umbrella of force seems to me to be a perfectly valid use of the prestidigitation cantrip and therefore requires no special spell. I suppose, "Keeps you dry in a hurricane.", might be beyond its ability but I don't think the world demands such spell exist, as you could just stay indoors and powerful mages have access to things like telekinetic sphere if they really need it. And the example spell to me nears and blurs the line between 'best implemented as a spell' and 'best implemented as an unusual magical item'. There is after all no real limitation on what a miscellaneous magical item can do except the DM's judgment. There is therefore a bit of necessary metagaming going on here on the part of the GM. You are in essence asking, "What permanent effects do I need to discount the cost of sufficiently so that these effects could be more ubiquitous and counteract the effects of the ubiquitous short term magic that I desire to have in the game for the sake of adventuring play?" In the case of someone with the resources of a King, potentially fortifying his residence for generation after generation, it's not clear that this qualifies as an area where logic necessitates that you have to do this. Even if spells with royal blood as components don't exist, the King can afford to create some defenses. It's not his royal palace that is really the concern here, but the home of the average middle class merchant, a coastal patrol boat, or a remote border fort. Is magic available to protect them, and if so from what? The biggest problem is spells that make life very problematic if ubiquitous counter-measures don't exist. High on the list are: 1) Invisibility: There are insufficient means of security against this spell. 2) Fireball and Wall of Fire: The damage of these spells isn't particularly import, but the ability of a spell to start fires has a huge importance in a world were wood is the primary and always necessary building material. Additionally, fireball raises questions about the ability of heavy infantry units like the Phalanx or Maniple to function [I]unless the rules actually provide such formations protection from such spells[/I]. 3) Fool's Gold and economically impacting illusion magic generally Less impactful but still important spells to think about: 4) Teleport. Import is huge, but spell is rare and those likely to need to have counters could find ways. 5) Charm Person and mind control magic generally. Import is huge, but spell is detectable through ordinary application of skill and some counter magic exists. 6) Create and fabricate spells, including wall spells with permanent duration. Less an example of a spell that needs a counter measure as spells where the non-dungeon impact wasn't well considered when balancing them. As written these can become economy breaking unless care is taken, particularly if turned into magical items, which they can at quite low level. A good example of an item whose importance in your game world can't be underestimated is a Lyre of Building, which is vastly undercosted relative to its economic impact. In general, magic items based on these spells and possibly the spells themselves are probably too available if you want to maintain a low magic feel. 7) Teleport Circle: Yes, it's a 9th level spell, but as written this spell completely changes the foundation of your world, permanently making points an arbitrary distance apart adjacent and rendering geography as such irrelevant. For items #1-#3 particularly, my approach is append defensive spells with a note indicating that the duration of the spell is permanent if a small amount of XP is invested at the time of the spells casting. There are precedents. Magic Mouth provides a good template for what defensive magic should look like, and earlier versions of the spell allowed them to be cast with a 'Detect' spell that allowed them to trigger on detect (think detect charm, detect evil, detect invisibility, etc.) and Continual Flame which allows for a permanent effect that is much cheaper than normal for creating a permanent effect through magic items of the permanency spell. Note the Continual Flame is probably the most impactful spell in the SRD in terms of how it changes the world, as it makes light cheap enough that street lamps are available to any city and any member of the middle class could light their study or workshop to allow for working at night. So high on my list would be: 1) Improved magic mouth that is permanent (for a small XP cost) and not merely permanent until discharged, and which can be given sensory ability by casting a 'detect' spell on it. These produce very high quality magical alarms and are particularly effective against otherwise difficult problems for low level characters like shapechanged foes, illusions and invisibility. One can easily imagine scales enspelled with such a spell and 'detect magic' or 'detect illusion' as rather ubiquitous trade items produced in mass quantity and owned by any self-respecting merchant. The applications of such a spell are almost infinite, the spell reasonably is 3rd level based on existing effects, and so guarantees that however common low level magic is, the counter to such magic is equally common. 2) A permanent ward that protects an object from burning available as a 3rd level spell or lower. 3) A permanent means of increasing an objects hardness and hit points available as a 3rd level spell or lower. 4) A permanent version of the alarm spell. 5) An improved version of arcane lock with a programmable bypass (only opens for those that say a certain word, only opens for those carrying a specific item, etc.) Some of the above could potentially be implemented as magic items (particularly the permanent alarm) and perhaps some are to increase durability, but I don't think that such spells are really beyond what existing spells suggest is possible. It should be noted that the most powerful defensive spell in the game is glyph of warding, as it has pretty much all the features we'd want in a defensive spell. It's permanent, it is available at relatively low level, it has a programmable trigger, and it has a customizable effect. Any defensive magic lacking these features is basically unusable, as offensive magic will always be cheaper and more effective. (If you don't have such effects, all you can manage for defense is a rapid reaction force armed with offensive magic.) The only problem with glyph of warding is that there is no arcane equivalent. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Background Magic
Top