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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 562352" data-attributes="member: 158">Here's where I have to take issue with DMs who let a player's natural charisma and ability to think on their feet override the PC's Charisma. The reason? Delivery. Timing. The je ne sais pas that separates professional comedians and performers from those of us who THINK we could be, but simply aren't.Your fighter with the 14 INT and 8 CHA might come up with a witty comeback or a quick excuse to throw off the city guard - but what if he can't lie convincingly worth a crap? Those who think all there is to bluffing and dealing with people is simply the words that come out of your mouth - have obviously either never done it before, or are themselves somewhat charismatic, and have never had a problem with it.Can you honestly talk someone into buying a new car, if they aren't receptive and don't have the money handy? Have you ever tried? (All those professional salesmen out there, I know you probably could. ) But even the pro salesmen have to agree, that professional sales is not just glib lines that work like a magic spell. I'm sure that any commisioned sales person who reads this forum has probably seen dozens of would-be salesmen come and go in their line of work, because they couldn't make the grade. I use sales as an example because to be a salesman is to sell YOURSELF, not the product. You have to be believable, you have to be (or look) trustworthy, and you have to have a certain amount of confidence that not everyone has. What better description for charisma, than trustworthiness, believability, and confidence? You say you DON'T need those! I pity those who think that. THe local Lord needs someone who can not just rescue his daughter, but someone who will leave her virtue intact? Is he going to trust Scruff the Fighter, Level 10 with a 29 STR, but with a 5 CHA?Heck, NO! I know some parents in the modern day who wouldn't let their daughter in the same room with a scuzzy-looking man. The king is going to trust you just because you can kill orcs faster than the Fist of God? You must be jesting! On your way with you, sirrah! I'll know where to find you if I need you!----------------Then, on the opposite side of things, there is the player who is not charismatic or witty in real life, but who wants to be. Do you penalize those players if they simply CAN'T roleplay as well as the next player? Do you TOSS them from the group if they are too shy to come up with their own witticisms? That's no way to play, either. Role-play should be encouraged, surely, but why have this set of "vapor" stats, those of the player's abilities, be in control of the game over the abilities that are actually IN the game? If a Dungeon Master ignores his players' characters' CHA stats and social skills, in favor of their own, then I fully would expect him to also force the players of the tough fighters to PROVE they could load their own BODIES up with the 75 lbs. of gear, and the 30 lb. armor that they wear, and pick up those 10 lb. Greatswords, and KEEP THEM ON for the course of the evening's session! Why would this be any less plausible than ignoring their PC's Charisma, in favor of what comes out of their mouths?There is PLENTY of reason for Charisma to be an active stat in the game. But the natural bias of the players in the group cause it to be less favorably seen than the other stats, and so naturally dumped on.In my games, players with low charismas don'te EVEN TRY to negotiate for goods and services. They leave it to the higher CHA party members.  Here's one small example of the way in which CHA is used in my games: Instead of having one set exchange rate for goods and magic that the PC's find and want to sell, they can sell it at 25% of full value, or they can barter. If they roll highly, they can sell it for anywhere from 25% to 75% of full value! If they roll exceptionally poorly, it might go down to as low as 10%!!! (They bargained and in the process said something that insulted the shopkeep or buyer.) The parties have a "face-man" that sells the loot for good prices. I am just waiting for one "faceman" to show up in the group who is really good at it to start asking for a percentage of the sale value! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />So my advice is to not let personal bias to get in the way, and THINK of the subtle ways in which charisma is used in your day to day life. If you have to interact with people, you use Charisma. Adventurers CANNOT get by without interacting with people. Who trains you? Who sells you your supplies and mounts? Who gives you your missions? Think about it.</blockquote>

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