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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quasqueton" data-source="post: 562481" data-attributes="member: 3854">I have to delurk and speak up on this subject. The concept that a character's charisma score is worthless, and that a player can just "role play" up his social skills is one of my biggest pet peeves. And this concept is not limited to just charisma either: intelligence and wisdom also get this treatment often.I recently dropped out of a group partly because of how the DM and players were handling the mental stats. 3 of the 5 PCs in the group had 8 intelligence -- mild retardation. But the players used (and the DM allowed them) their full *player* intelligence in the game. 2 of these players were the planners of the party. I played about half a dozen game sessions with these guys and didn't know till my last day that they had such low intelligence characters. I only learned because we all were talking about our ability scores.And to think I wasted a 12 in intelligence so that I could play the part of a semi-tactical leader (paladin).Even just considering game mechanics, charisma is really not that much a dump stat: - sorcerers and bards use it to cast spells- bards use it to perform- clerics and paladins use it to turn undead- paladins use it for all saves- rogues use it to feint, to get sneak attacks- the leadership feat is very powerful with high charismaAs for charisma and social skills: I had a paladin (in the above "8 intelligence" game) with 18 charisma and 12 ranks in diplomacy. With the +2 synergy from sense motive, that gave my paladin a total +18 to his diplomacy checks. That's plus eighteen! Looking through the Epic Level Handbook, I see Mordenkainen has +18 diplomacy. And he is considered a master diplomat.Looking through the DMG, I see I can change hostile adversaries to friendly with a good roll. In the campaign I quit. . .The party (plus my paladin's cohort and followers) got themselves into a delicate situation. We were trying to enter a city that was in a siege mentality because of hordes of undead roaming the territory around (long story). We were standing in the hall between the city gates - down portcullises at both ends, arrow slits along the walls, murder holes above, etc. The captain of the guard ordered us all to strip completely naked and walk through a side door one at a time to be allowed in the city.My paladin tried diplomacy. No change in attitude. The DM never even rolled a die or looked in a rule book. He just "role played" the situation.We all disarmed, putting our weapons in a wagon. I tried diplomacy again. No change in attitude.We all removed our armor, and put the suits in the wagon. I tried diplomacy again. No change in attitude.Some PCs did strip naked, and were taken one by one to be checked out by an old crone. She was obviously using detect evil or detect undead on each person.My paladin and his soldiers did not strip naked, but were last allowed to enter one by one. We were thoroughly frisked and scanned for evil/undead.Once in the city, our wagons and equipment (including several magic items) was confiscated and stored in a side building. Our party were in effect under tight house arrest the whole time we were in the city.I continuously tried negotiating with the guard officers, and even the old crone. But all my +18 diplomacy got me was a harsher attitude.I had built this character on the concept of being the charismatic leader. But the DM (and even the players) shut it all down.This problem was not the fault of the game system/mechanics. It was the fault of the DM and players.In such campaigns, charisma (and intelligence and wisdom) is violently forced into the "dump stat" cliche. It's sad, really.Quasqueton</blockquote>

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