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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gargoyle" data-source="post: 27470" data-attributes="member: 529">Note that this is a B.A.D.D. post (Bothered About Disposable Dragons, started by Wolfspider - good idea!).  I'm declaring myself a member.  Sorry for the length, but I find dragons fascinating and tend to ramble.Instead of merely complaining about dragons being too easily killed, I'd like to discuss why this is so, and how to make them a challenge without making them unstoppable.  I'd like this thread to be a clinic for suggestions to DMs for playing dragons well.<disclaimers>First of all, I'd like to say that not all dragons need to be played like omniscient, omnipotent godlings that can easily kill an entire party.  My campaigns are centered around the player characters, not NPC dragons.   (I prefer to think of them as NPCs rather than mere monsters)  Also, I don't think DMs need to resort to "cheesy" tactics for dragons to win.  For instance, setting a few simple traps in its lair is logical.  Setting a host of elaborate traps that would take a high level rogue or wizard (or both) is illogical, unless the dragon happens to be a high level rogue or wizard, or is allied with one. (in which case the CR needs to reflect that)Finally, I do think that since all dragons are haughty, they will make mistakes from time to time regardless of Intelligence, like entering melee with a high level fighter or ignoring a rogue that is trying to flank him.  After underestimating the party one time, the dragon is likely to stop doing so.  For example, that first sneak attack or full attack action with a sword +5 will wake him up to the danger he's in.   My point is that just because a dragon makes a mistake, doesn't mean the DM screwed up.</disclaimers>Despite all the above, I agree that dragons are usually underplayed, and that it is mostly the DM's fault.  However, I don't think it is ever the intention of a DM to play dragons poorly; I think it is because they are simply hard to play:- Dragons are difficult to run.  Look at the length of the monster manual entry and the number of abilities.   Players who roll up 20th level characters for a high level one-shot have similar difficulties; they aren't as familiar with all their capabilities compared to how they would be with a character they had advanced from 1 to 20th level.  A perfect example is a dragon's senses.  Invisible creatures can often be detected by smell, something that a DM often forgets.  - Often dragons are very Intelligent, and are supposed to be smarter than the DM is in real life.  Playing a creature that is smarter than you (and has hundreds or thousands of years of experience) is hard, and often requires a lot of pre-planning.- The environment can greatly affect the outcome of any battle, but even more so when dragons are involved, due to their number of abilities.  Most DMs realize that dragons will prefer to fight from the air.  Some don't think about the green dragon's ability to breathe water, or a blue dragon's ability to imitate sounds, and how those abilities can be more effective in an appropriate environment, for instance in a lake or a in an echoing cave, respectively.- Spellcasters are always more difficult to run, and many dragons cast spells.- DMs that don't use miniatures or battlemats are at a disadvantage when running tactical combats with dragons, particularly because of reach.- Knowing that a horde of treasure awaits them, player characters will usually "unload" on a dragon.  They often hold back their resources during other encounters, especially powerful charged items and potions, then use everything possible when confronted with a dragon.  You see the same effect when they face a life-draining undead creature, though it's more out of fear than greed.- Most DM's don't run dragons very often.  This is admirable, because it makes such encounters rare and special, but the result is that they usually aren't very experienced with dragons.  This last point is the most important.  If you only run one or two dragon encounters in the course of a campaign (or even a dozen in the course of a long-running campaign), how can you expect to do a good job, given the difficulty?  I've been guilty of forgetting important things like a dragon's DR or frightful presence in the heat of combat, mistakes that certainly hurt the dragon.  My feeling is that if you want to run a dragon well, you should practice playing them first.  Run a few practice combats for fun, preferably with a different group than your players or by yourself.  (No sir, I didn't see you playing with your dolls again.)What do you suggest for DM's aspiring to run a climatic battle with a dragon?</blockquote>

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