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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Pax" data-source="post: 485791" data-attributes="member: 6875">Oh, if I put the PC's up against a dragon, I plan for it to get killed.  However, I plan to make it an event the players will remember for YEARS.Mind, I also bump the effective CR's of dragons up a lot (by about 50%), based largely on STATS, let alone tactics -- so any party that survives, is WELL rewarded in XP and (if they can find it, and then GET it) loot.Actually the emptiness around a dragons' lair isn't the result of any intentional action on the partof the dragon.First off, even dragons have to eat, and it's simply not wise to make oneself fly hundreds of miles before grabbing dinner, if one doesn't have to.Secondly, the mere SCENT of a dragon is likely to frighten off most prey animals -- deer, elk, wild cattle, or whatever.  Lesser predators will follow the prey, even if they aren't especially unhappy living in a dragon's hunting grounds.  And that scent, after centuries of living in/under, and flying over, a given area ... will be there, evenif not to the strength a HUMAN could readily detect.Thirdly, and lastly, the "area around the lair" I'm talking about is, for -miles- around (in the case of larger dragons especially).  For a huge, ancient dragon, it might be mroe than a day's travel from where the low animal population is nooticable, to the lair itself.Or point out to the GM, that such actions would be more harmful than helpful in the long run, for that campaign.  It only causes an arugment and discord if one or the other side decides to be an ass during the process.The exposure-to-cold rules the books cover is for beign in AIR, and being exposed.  Not water.  Water is a wondrous thermal "sink" ... it'll suck the heat -- and life -- right out of you, given half the chance.IIRC, in the North Sea, even with specially-designed suits, Oil Rig crewmen forced to abandon their derrick -- say, due to fire -- have anhour otr two to live.  That's with modern, battery-heated, space-age-insulated flotation/thermal-protection suits.Try it in chainmail.  Aside form the need to float and/or breathe, I suspect you'd be dead -- or very near to it -- within a couple minutes.  Tops.Me, I was thinking, 1 temporary Con damage per round; hit zero, and it's the long dirt-nap for you.  After all, 25-degree saltwater isn't terribly much fun to swim in.  OFC, protection against cold damage -- or a ring of warmth, etc -- would help IMMENSELY.Well, see -- deep water.  Most weapons don't work so well (a) underwater, and (b) without the wielder being able to stand on a stable surface.  8)  And remember, the ice is thick enough to have the strength to support the dragon's weight.  6 or 8 inches thich should take, oh ... maybe 2-3 rounds to hack through, under the circumstances.  Plenty of time for the dragon to flood the upper chamber ...Not really.  First the ice is thick/strong ehnough for the dragon to walk about on it.  Second, the water is coming in SIDEWAYS, not from above, so it runs ACROSS the floor, into the far wall ... never hitting he ice floor face-on.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Some things from prior editions are worth keeping.  In 2E, IIRC, Lightning Bolt went to a fireball-type area, once it hit water (at the mage's fingertips if he was UNDER water, ouchie!).I balance final EL -- including adjustments for tactics -- against the party's net average level.  So if one presumes the tactics described (and my own automatic 50% increase for all Dragon CRs) would double the effective EL, and it's an 18th level party ... the dragon's innage CR will be roughly 9, give or take, as listed in the MM.Not arctic waters, and not for that long.  Jumping into the Bering Strait, without protective gear, is a suicide attempt.I've DONE the Polar Bear thing, as a kid.  That water isn't sub-freezing ... it's about 40 degrees usually.  Also, for the most part, most of yoru body -- from the waist up -- isn't immersed for any length of time.  TOTAL immersion would be a different matter.We're talking about maybe 10 to 20 degree saltwater (saltwater specifically, or it'd be solid ice at those temperatures), for people in clothes and/or metal armor.  MAJOR, near-instant, loss of body heat.  Be glad I don't advocate modelling the thermal shock effects ... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /></blockquote>

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