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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clark411" data-source="post: 1413532" data-attributes="member: 4768">Given my experiences, I have to agree that it is the responsibility of the players to ensure balance at the table as well.  I've seen players who focus on making 'living' characters that evolve, take feats to reflect what's happened in the story, and aren't based on maximizing certain powers they can get (they won't try to be the absolute Best tripper, then refine all their tactics around tripping... or they won't go the route where they are amazing with two shortswords but can't handle anything else well).  I've seen these players sitting across from players who are into Power builds, and literally have a binary opinion of everything in the books as either "Optimal" or "Not Worth It."  They chart out their classes for all 20 levels at level 1, and draft and draft and draft with prestige classes and rearranging levels to ensure the best array of BAB, Save, Sneak Attack, or whatever they want.Now, neither of these stances can be looked at as "wrong" in any objective manner, but when the two sit at the table together, typically I've found that the optimizers wipe the floor with combat while the evolvers depend upon describing nifty actions to remain in the game, sometimes actions they technically aren't allowed to do by the rule set.  The DM on the other hand, has the tightrope to walk between entertaining the optimizers and not outright killing the evolvers without (Big Without) making it seem like he's picking on the optimizers and sparing the evolvers.  This results typically in the optimizers getting a bit paranoid, questioning how their neigh omnipotent builds are constantly on the brink of death while the clearly inferior PCs at the table seem to be getting along rather well.  The result is either complaints of being singled out for maximum punishment, or the belief that clearly the build isn't powerful enough and, should the optimizer die, and even MORE powerful build is needed.Now, if it's wrong in general for the DM to cater his game to both sides of this is a great question... and it ultimately comes down to the degree of pressure they recieve from the players.  In what I've seen, optimizers tend to demand challenge, but expect success.  If they do not get challenged, they get bored.  If they do not succeed, they get irritated.  It's a bit of a catch 22... so in effect nothing the DM does can be correct, and the only solution that seems reasonable is to chuck the self-centered stance of the Optimizers out of the window.  That leaves catering to the Evolvers, while juggling to some extend the passive aggressive mentality of the Optimizers when Initiative rolls around.Long story short, as mentioned before, different powerlevels and even "philosophies of gaming" at the table can cause major problems.  I've seen deathspirals where DMs and Players have gone back and forth, both building more impressive monsters to fight more impressive 5th and 6th string characters whose feats and equipment become more impressive.  Have also seen players not so involved in the mechanics get absolutely blown away by adventuring in such an environment.  It isn't pretty- and my only nod to gaming in general is that at least most gaming groups aren't quite so dysfunctional... and that even these problems only rear themselves at most, once a week. ^_^</blockquote>

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