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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5827097" data-attributes="member: 54877">We are almost to agreement, I think.  Let me see if the next step for me is acceptable to you:  My contention is that in order to set things so they work as you have stated above, two things must happen: 1. There must be roughly equal things in one sphere to take, in lieu of whatever you didn't take in another sphere.  If you choose to be worse in combat in return for better exploration abilities, there has to be something in exploration roughly balanced with that combat ability. 2. If you don't want to allow this swap in a given class, and you don't want to force it to a particular point, then there needs to be adjustment mechanisms or at least balance communication mechanism.  Whether this is forced balance or forced imbalance across combat, exploration, or interaction is here irrelevant; it's the "force" part that is the issue.   Think about it like this. With a bard character, you have the option to swap, say, crossbow capabilities for banjo capabilities.  If you don't make the swap, you'll be roughly 3/3/4 on my made up combat/exploration/interactive scale.  If you do make it, you'll be more like 2/3/5.  Of if you prefer, the banjo capabilities are the default and you can swap them for crossbow stuff.  It doesn't matter.  What does matter is that you've got an even swap, and this is communicated to you.  You can do that with nothing but swappable class abilities. Now assume the possibility of different playstyes and environments.  The DM says this is going to be a 90% interaction game.  That swap isn't balanced anymore (most likely).  The DM might tell you, "Keep the banjo stuff, and take the crossbow stuff for free. The latter won't come up enough to matter."  Or the game is 80% combat.  You get a similar offer, with reverse reasoning.  Or you get something to compensate.  Or maybe you don't.  But you really wanted that banjo.  So you decide to build an underpowered character by dropping the crossbow.  At least you know what you signed up for.  Or it's a 75% exploration game, and it really doesn't matter that much how you do it, because crossbow and banjo use are equally niche. For that discussion to have any meaning, however, there has to be a roughly balanced baseline from which to measure.  In fact, you can more readily diverge from that baseline knowing it is there.  As long as you aren't forced into balance or imbalance.</blockquote>

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