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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5827778" data-attributes="member: 87792">And as I have mentioned, there is a wide range in how combat focussed characters are.  My current bard can just about fight.  And does something useful each round.  But he has about half the damage output of the slayer, and about two thirds of the damage output of the knight - even before the knight's battle guardian is taken into account.  He also has only about three quarters of their hit points.  His AC is the lowest in the whole party.  Yes he contributes - but in combat he is far and away the weakest of the four PCs in the party. On the flipside, out of combat he rocks.  He has an incredibly broad range of effective skills, and is both a social manipulator and loremaster (and the party's second best sneak). Also for out of combat ability, a 4e thief can kick the arse of a pathfinder rogue.  8+Int skill points per level to spend on Pathfinder skills is not a match for seven 4e skills.  At level 10 a 4e thief has more feats than a pathfinder one (and yes, not all 4e feats are combat feats).  And as for rogue talents, they are competing with utility powers.  Most 10th level 4e thieves have a climb speed - worth at least a trick (the nearest PF trick is "Wall Scramble" which merely allows them to roll twice for climbs).  They all have three utility powers - again worth a trick each at the very least.  (And that's not taking combat tricks into account - for instance 4e thieves get the equivalent of surprise attacks for free). Also for out of combat ability, try comparing fighters.  2+Int skill points/level vs 3 trained skills.  Doesn't look that one sided until you realise that climb, jump, and swim are all under the same skill in 4e.  Fighters, too, get utility powers. Out of combat, 4e non-casters almost invariably have more utility and flexibility than remotely equivalent Pathfinder non-casters. The idea that 4e ignores non-combat is simple misinformation.  Please stop repeating it.  What are you objecting to about rituals? And yes, 4e doesn't allow you to dump everything into non-combat.  QFT.  Balance is information.  A balanced game is one that does what it says it does on the tin.  If you want casters to dominate the game, pitch yourself like Ars Magica.  That casters are more powerful and lay that out clearly, explicitely, and repeatedly.</blockquote>

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