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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5830224" data-attributes="member: 87792">It was also the case that pre-3e, wizards (a) needed to find their spells, (b) couldn't necessarily learn them from any book and (c) had a limited number they could know at any given level. Which would restrict although not come close to eliminating the impacts of bloat.  Ah. A lot of the problems perceived in 4e are down to the PHB1 honestly not being that good a book (and neither is the MM1). The classes are generic rather than inspiring (with the exception of the Warlock) which has the advantage that they cover much more territory than more narrowly defined ones would. They even screwed up the flavour of the wizard - who the hell cares whether you're a staff, a wand, or an orb wizard? This has been corrected in Essentials which has almost exactly the same rules but Essentials mages get to choose a school of magic - so you get Evokers, Enchanters, Illusionists, Pyromancers, Necromancers, and Nethermancers. They've done something similar to the Paladin in making the Cavalier version in Essentials; Paladins are now defined by their virtue. There are two published virtues - Cavaliers of Valour (may not be evil) and Cavaliers of Sacrifice (must be Lawful Good). (Blackguards are defined by their vice, with there being Blackguards of Tyranny and Blackguards of Wrath) It was the PHB 2 classes that got me into 4e. Much more flavoursome than the PHB 1 - and you're being unfair enough to compare 4e with just the PHB to 3.X with many years of splatbooks. My first ever 4e character was the 3 level preview of the Bard before the PHB2 was even out - the Vicious Mockery at will being on its own enough to sell me on the class. You picked the Barbarian as an example. 4e Barbarian rages rock - they are the Barbarian's power, but how Barbarians rage differs from Barbarian to Barbarian. Some simply get stronger and faster. Others are so metal that they call to the heavens, and the heavens answer with thunder and lightning, and physically drive people back with the force of their battlecries. Or they summon the spirits of mighty beasts to empower them - which can be just strength, or you can summon the spirit of something like the phoenix. Compared to the 4e Barbarian, the 3.X one feels bland and narrow.  No it isn't. It's simply a class by class comparison shows this to be incredibly dubious. If you compare the 4e PHB to the 3e PHB, the 3e PHB appears to have one high-flavour class; the Paladin. The 4e PHB one can't match this - but in reply the 4e PHB has the Warlock. I'll match ranger to ranger, rogue to rogue, cleric to cleric, wizard to wizard and sorceror, warlord to 3e bard, fighter to fighter, and 4e paladin to 3e barbarian. At this point, PHB to PHB I think 4e has a significant edge on flavour by class - but it's close when you throw in the overlap caused by having the druid, the monk, the bard, and the separate wizard and sorceror classes. However you don't have seven years of splatbooks supporting the 4e PHB in the way you do the 3e PHB.  (The 2e PHB from what I recall doesn't even have extra classes - 1e has the monk, the assassin, and the fighting to level up approach). Then we throw in the PHB 2. Invoker. Shaman. Avenger. Bard. Barbarian. Sorceror. Druid (shapeshifter/caster - there are currently three 4e druids because the 3.X one was so wide - the shapeshifter/caster, the caster/summoner, and the healer with an animal companion). Warden. The first five of these classes absolutely drip with flavour - which they can afford to because we've got the generics out of the way in the PHB 1 (the generics being necessary for the game's breadth).  In order to make them equally powerful, the 3.X CoDzilla and wizard need seriously cutting back - and wizards shouldn't be able to do anything because "It's magic". And people are arguing against this.</blockquote>

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