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<blockquote data-quote="hanez" data-source="post: 5833377" data-attributes="member: 82160">I usually like your arguments, but this ones getting close to strawmanning, or perhaps just off the mark in my opinion.&nbsp; Heres why:You mention the 3e druid shapechange, which was broken because of specific flaws in the way it worked.&nbsp; Druids could shapechange into monsters much tougher then fighters.&nbsp; There were specific things you can shapechange into that broke the game.&nbsp; There are many ways to fix that, pathfinder tried a few.&nbsp; 4e fixed many of the issues by limiting the amount of beasts you could polymorph into (eliminating the problem of the 3e player pouring over monsters to find the one broken one he could morph into).&nbsp; What 4e ALSO did that is the issue is shoehorn the entire class (and every other class) into a very tight, combat centric and similar mold.&nbsp; This problem could have been fixed without the &quot;everyone has the same amount of powers&quot; model.The argument as I see it isn't about whether specific things need to be tweaked, I at least readily grant that, but whether or not there is room in the game for classes that work differently.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="hanez, post: 5833377, member: 82160"] I usually like your arguments, but this ones getting close to strawmanning, or perhaps just off the mark in my opinion. Heres why: You mention the 3e druid shapechange, which was broken because of specific flaws in the way it worked. Druids could shapechange into monsters much tougher then fighters. There were specific things you can shapechange into that broke the game. There are many ways to fix that, pathfinder tried a few. 4e fixed many of the issues by limiting the amount of beasts you could polymorph into (eliminating the problem of the 3e player pouring over monsters to find the one broken one he could morph into). What 4e ALSO did that is the issue is shoehorn the entire class (and every other class) into a very tight, combat centric and similar mold. This problem could have been fixed without the "everyone has the same amount of powers" model. The argument as I see it isn't about whether specific things need to be tweaked, I at least readily grant that, but whether or not there is room in the game for classes that work differently. [/QUOTE]

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