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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 1298696" data-attributes="member: 957">Well obviously opinions can differ.  It sounds to me like you just have not seen Tumble used very well.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />But regardless, a small ability that comes at effectively no cost is still an increase.  Tumble can get you OUT of the same jam it got you into.  Plus, even without SA you AND at least one ally get +2 to attacks, which pretty well cancels out a slight delay in access to Greater Weapon Focus.At the end of the day an F6/SwB2 has everything an F8 has, plus slightly better saves, and better skill points.  They have the exact same number of feats.  The fighter does not gain the full value of GWF.  GWF is a good feat, but there are plenty of other good feats, so being forced to pick a different one for two levels is virtually negligible.  So ultimately the pure fighter gains nothing at all.  Only the subjective value of one feat vs another, and then only for a short period.  It is certainly not a big deal, but I fail to see how you can marginalize an objective permanent gain in resources while praising a purely subjective and temporary gain in a slightly smaller pool of resources.</blockquote>