Balance ? Swordsage as Ninja

[satori01]

Player of mine wants to build a Ninja, but instead of using the Complete Adventurer version wants she to use the Swordsage from Tome of Battle.

Specifically she wants to sacrifice Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and reduce his hit die to a d6, to get the weapon Proficiencies and Sudden Strike Progression of the Complete Adventurer Ninja class.

Frankly I think the Shadow Hand school screams Ninja to me, and can see where she wants to go with the class. My only great fear is Sudden Strike mixed with many of the manuevers of the Tiger Claw school will mean Sudden Strike madness, then again so does the swift Invisibility KI power of a base Ninja.

Overall I think it is balanced, my players propossed alteration, but I wanted to see what others thought?

Balanced on not?

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm playing a swordsage now. I think it'd be balanced. You might also want to change what weapons apply with the different schools so that you can actually use some of those ninja weapons with your special abilities.

 

[Stalker0]

Does swordsage get the ability to make people lose their dex bonus?

 

[starwed]

Going for a full sudden strike progression might not be balanced. The Shadow Hand school, for instance, already has a stance which grants +2d6 sneak attack. And there are several abilities which would allow you to either catch the opponent flat footed or strike from full concealment. Unlike the ninja, the sword sage gets to wear light armor.

On the other hand, most of the paths special moves require forsaking full attack, which is normally when sneak attack/sudden strike deals the most damage.

I'd say start off with +1d6 sudden strike/3 levels, and see how it works out in practice. And probably either change their AC bonus to work when unarmored, or reduce the number of maneuvers readied/known by a small amount.

 

[satori01]

IYou might also want to change what weapons apply with the different schools so that you can actually use some of those ninja weapons with your special abilities.

That is a good catch. Shadow Hand school will definetely reflect the weapons of a Ninja...not sure about Shuriken...but off the top of my head probably not that unbalancing.

I've considered going for a 1/3 Sudden Strike progression, Sudden Strike is so much weaker than Sneak Attack, and using manuevers to ensure one big hit from SS seems in theme. I suspect the character will be more powerful than a Complete Adventurer Ninja, but that is not saying alot.

 

[kaomera]

Especially given your concerns about Tiger Claw, you might want to restrict which schools the character will have access to. This may not even affect the character at all (was the player planning on taking any maneuvers from those schools?), but it could sidestep possible problems down the line.

Personally, when tinkering with existing classes I like to try and cut out extra abilities that don't really apply to the character concept. This helps keep the character focused, which in and of itself helps with a lot of balance issues, and it also helps me when and if I have to "sell" the changes to other characters who are using unmodified classes.

 

[pawsplay]

Specifically she wants to sacrifice Light Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and reduce his hit die to a d6, to get the weapon Proficiencies and Sudden Strike Progression of the Complete Adventurer Ninja class.

I don't see how that will fly. Basically, you'd be giving away sneak attack for hit points. It would be kind of like allowing a monk to trade 2 skill points a level to get a fighter's bonus feats. Buying into a another class's main shtick should never be that cheap. Even most prestige classes aren't that sweet, unless they offer little besides.

The weapon proficiency swap seems fine, though.

 

[Staffan]

The big problem I see with using a swordsage as a ninja is that a ninja is supposed to be an assassin. Assassining someone often requires getting to that person, which includes things like picking locks and finding/avoiding/disarming traps, tasks which the swordsage isn't particularly good at.

You can make a pretty good approximation of a character that fights like a ninja, but he won't be very good at the rest of a ninja's skills.

 

[satori01]

You could say the Rogue is stepping on a Ninja's stichk, I definetely would say the Rogue is a better Ninja than a Ninja. This is less than a Monk "trading in skill points for bonus feats", this is more the player, and myself the DM, see potential in the Swordsage to be a better Ninja than the so called Ninja base class.

Question is does it meet the balance test.

As regards the trapfinding issue, the shadow jumping manuevers of the Shadow Hand school will take care of some of this. Some skill rejuggling will happen, with Spot and Open Locks replacing some other skills. To give the character Trapfinding I think does step on the Rogues toes a bit much.