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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Quasqueton" data-source="post: 3739385" data-attributes="member: 3854">I've seen numerous references to a supposedly commonly known "fact" of AD&D1 -- that dungeons were more dangerous, not balanced (appropriate) for the levels, etc. (especially compared to D&D3). Here are a few quotes I found with a quick scan through the "Classic dungeons: What makes them great?" thread:Since no one ever refutes, or even responds in surprise at these kinds of statements, it seems that everyone accepts this concept as fact.But the AD&D1 DMG had pages of advice and charts for making dungeons appropriately challenging for their levels. Gygax advised against putting PCs up against too tough challenges, because constant PC death is not fun and discourages players from continuing the game. Dragon magazine had articles to help DMs better judge the challenge level of an encounter. The advice and charts in the D&D3 DMG are very similar in tone and function to their AD&D1 DMG counterparts. The only real difference I can see between the two is that the D&D3 guidelines are more detailed -- we have the challenge level of a single orc (and how to calculate out the probable challenge level of multiple orcs) instead of a chart saying that 1-8 orcs are a good challenge for a 1st-3rd level dungeon encounter. Essentially the same information without the randomness.To look at *true dungeon* adventures, I've gone through, in detail:The Moathouse (from The Village of Hommlet) - 2 dungeon levels for PC levels 1 to ~3The Temple of Elemental Evil - 4 dungeon levels for PC levels ~3 to ~8Steading of the Hill Giant Chief - 2 dungeon levels for PC levels ~8 to ~9Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl - 2 dungeon levels for PC levels ~9 to ~10Hall of the Fire Giant King - 2 dungeon levels for PC levels ~10 to ~11The Caves of Chaos (from Keep on the Borderlands) - a sprawling dungeon for PC levels 1 to ~3The Caverns of Quasqueton (from In Search of the Unknown) - 2 dungeon levels for PC levels 1 to ~3Of all these dungeons, 15+ levels, hundreds of encounters, I found only one encounter that is truly overwhelming for it's stated level -- the party of giants in the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. And ironically, for this concept, it is rather obvious from reading the module, the designer expected the PCs to avoid that encounter. Equally ironic is how many PC parties assaulted the party, and survived! (But then, a good fireball from a 9th level magic user could kill multiple giants in the first round.)All the AD&D1 adventure modules had the appropriate level ranges right on the cover. The range (instead of a single level number) took into consideration the difference in levels between the various classes because of the different xp progressions. Also, the designers often accepted the paradigm that not all PCs would have been adventuring together, equally, during their career.In the AD&D1 paradigm, a party might consist of:Fighter 6Cleric 7Magic-User 5Thief 8So where does this idea come from that AD&D1 dungeons regularly had overwhelming challenges? Sure, a dungeon for level X would probably have encounters ranging from dungeon levels X-4 to X+2 (on the chart in the DMG), but there were rarely (if ever -- I don't know of any) overwhelming challenges (like X+4 or higher). There were no beholders, demons, and huge dragons in low level modules. A module for "Character Levels 4-7" had challenges appropriate for characters levels 4-7 (as best that the designer could judge the challenge level). And this is exactly how the guidelines in the AD&D1 DMG *and* the D&D3 DMG suggest to create adventure challenges.Now this doens't mean that the PCs couldn't do something stupid, like draw 4 individual, level-appropriate encounters into one mass, overwhelming encounter -- but PCs can still be stupid and orchestrate a TPK despite the best designed dungeons, today, just like they could yesterday.Can someone tell me where to look for these overwhelming encounters (compared to the level range stated on the front of the classic module)? From what I have seen, with detailed examination of many "old school" adventure modules, a group of PCs in the level 4-7 range could expect to be able to handle all the challenges in a module designated as for levels 4-7.Now, of course if the party is just three PCs of level 4, the challenges in the level 4-7 module would be overwhelming. But then for a party of eight PCs of level 7, the challenges in the level 4-7 module would be cake walks. This is true today and was true yesterday.For my answer to my question, I think a lot of people are remembering adventuring in dungeons designed by their fellow 13-year old DMs, who had no concept or understanding of "balanced encounters" despite the advice in the AD&D1 DMG. The official, published AD&D1 modules were designed with an eye on balanced encounters; unbalanced encounters were as unfun (on the whole, for the gaming hobby) yesterday as they are today.Quasqueton</blockquote>

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