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<blockquote data-quote="Ourph" data-source="post: 3739450" data-attributes="member: 20239">Great analysis and I completely agree with the overall conclusion that core AD&amp;D had plenty of tools for and placed just as much emphasis on providing level appropriate encounters for characters as other games.I think the source of this idea is the change of focus from OD&amp;D/AD&amp;D and site-based, megadungeon adventures/campaigns to 2e/3e with more plot-based, small dungeon or &quot;lair&quot; adventures/campaigns.&nbsp; With a site-based game, the players have more options for getting in over their heads.&nbsp; For example, in Gary's most recent Castle Zagyg/OD&amp;D campaign (playtesting for the CZ modules), he describes the players choosing to remain on the 1st level of the dungeons where the pickings are slim, but the dangers less, instead of delving deeper where the challenges become harder and the rewards greater.&nbsp; This is a classic example of a site-based adventure where it's probably possible for the PCs to wander into an area that's &quot;too tough&quot; for them.&nbsp; The nature of plot-based adventure design makes it far less likely that the players will wander into that kind of &quot;too tough&quot; encounter.Obviously, this idea is drastically affected by a person's actual play experience.&nbsp; My own experience doesn't lead me to the conclusion that dungeons &quot;regularly had overwhelming challenges&quot;.&nbsp; I knew that there were overwhelming challenges on lower levels, but our group was careful to avoid those levels if possible until we were ready to face them.&nbsp; The occasional overwhelming challenge would crop up if we fell down a shaft to a lower level or got lost, but those occasions were blessedly rare and when they did occur our first response was to immediately find some way to return to the upper, &quot;safer&quot; levels of the dungeon (as recommended by the PHB).&nbsp; I'm sure for other groups, those kinds of encounters were more frequent depending on the DM's ideas about dungeon design and the players choice of which levels to explore.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ourph, post: 3739450, member: 20239"] Great analysis and I completely agree with the overall conclusion that core AD&D had plenty of tools for and placed just as much emphasis on providing level appropriate encounters for characters as other games. I think the source of this idea is the change of focus from OD&D/AD&D and site-based, megadungeon adventures/campaigns to 2e/3e with more plot-based, small dungeon or "lair" adventures/campaigns. With a site-based game, the players have more options for getting in over their heads. For example, in Gary's most recent Castle Zagyg/OD&D campaign (playtesting for the CZ modules), he describes the players choosing to remain on the 1st level of the dungeons where the pickings are slim, but the dangers less, instead of delving deeper where the challenges become harder and the rewards greater. This is a classic example of a site-based adventure where it's probably possible for the PCs to wander into an area that's "too tough" for them. The nature of plot-based adventure design makes it far less likely that the players will wander into that kind of "too tough" encounter. Obviously, this idea is drastically affected by a person's actual play experience. My own experience doesn't lead me to the conclusion that dungeons "regularly had overwhelming challenges". I knew that there were overwhelming challenges on lower levels, but our group was careful to avoid those levels if possible until we were ready to face them. The occasional overwhelming challenge would crop up if we fell down a shaft to a lower level or got lost, but those occasions were blessedly rare and when they did occur our first response was to immediately find some way to return to the upper, "safer" levels of the dungeon (as recommended by the PHB). I'm sure for other groups, those kinds of encounters were more frequent depending on the DM's ideas about dungeon design and the players choice of which levels to explore. [/QUOTE]

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