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Balancing out Racial Abilities
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7541868" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>[MENTION=6976296]James Grover[/MENTION]</p><p></p><p>"While I understand your concerns about the encumbrace penalty to Gnome and Halfling races, it simply should have been there from the start IMO. Both races weigh, on average 40 lbs according to RAW. It is ludicous to think of a 40 lb character with even a Str 10 carrying around 150 lbs or more (depending on variant use or not) without penalty. That would be like a 200-lb human carrying 500 lbs! I know this is a fantasy game, but that is completely unrealistic without magic. Likewise, that same Small character can jump just as far as a Medium one with the same Strength score... again, not quite right IMO."</p><p></p><p>Actually you seem to have a totally different thought about what strength (the score) is. </p><p>In 5e strength (the score) is not a multiplier based on your weight, but an objective measure of your character's muscle power - not by any means necessarily tied to muscle mass or the percentage of muscle to non-muscle overall weight. This is a magical world, not a reality one - so it is perfectly within the realm of fantasy to have gnomes and halflings etc. be "by dint of their origins and the will of the gods which forged them, these races are smaller but sturdy and stronger than they look." Even in our own world, animal experts and even pop-tv types will point out that while primates like chimps are smaller than us, their ratio of muscle to total weight is higher - so applying our "human-size" expectations is going to turn out badly - and last i checked chimps were not magical races.</p><p></p><p>*if* one makes it so that in their world it makes more sense for the changes you see - Is it more "making sense" then that the small race can carry only a fraction of the usual amount but can still hit as hard with the same strength-based axe? Or have the same chance at forcing a door as a same strength human? Succeed at a grapple check vs a larger guy?</p><p></p><p>But hey, lets not let flavor dull that razor of balance cutting away that which cant be tabulated.</p><p></p><p>For my games, if you want to play a weak halfling to reflect your size, i just say "then choose a low strength" and we all treat strength score as an objective score, not a "fluid maybe means this but maybe means that" thing.</p><p></p><p>"Now, I already planned on having "Small-size" heavier items, such as Heavy Armors, etc. with lighter weight. A Small-sized Breastplate would not weigh the same as a Medium one. I understand 5E wants simplicity, but it can go too far."</p><p></p><p>And here we go... one general hallmark of a "less than wonderful house rule to me is when you have to immediately change other things to reverse some of the complications." if you have to go "three steps left and two steps forward and one step back and four steps right" to get to "a step ahead and a step right" you are probably on the wrong path.</p><p></p><p>What about food? What about drink?</p><p>A week's worth of rations weighs 14lbs and a full waterskin weighs 5 lbs so my strength 8 gnome has lost about half his carry capacity right there. You gonna adjust weights for those too? </p><p></p><p>there is a reason that the *small and medium" size categories in 5e were chosen to treat carry and equipment measures for individual items and character capacity the same. </p><p></p><p>But, if you are dead set and determined, instead of flat scores, consider using the variant of the goliath and firbolg features which simp,y says "treat this creature as tiny for carrying" as that starts your full redux using already existing mechanics for size differences instead of re-inventing the wheel.</p><p></p><p>me? i just treat small as not just being "size" and mass.</p><p></p><p>"So, you are only interested in Wood-elf Druids or Drow Paladins? You can still play any class with an Int-only ASI. Also, the Dex +2 is still more than viable for Rogue, Rangers, and other classes. "</p><p></p><p>I have no idea where you got this from. I am interested in wood-elves whose scores and strengths reflect a long time living in the woods - not towers of magic and so forth. I like having a race defined as coming from lifetime in the woods getting a boost to the ability that reflects aptitude with tasks like interacting with and influencing or controlling animals, finding and foraging for food and water in the wild, follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.</p><p></p><p>"Shadowsight isn't pointless as I see it. If you could expand on your point please do and let me know why you think it is. Shadowsight is not replacing Darkvision for many "commonly underground" monsters. And what can I say, I like the idea of players resting more in towns than in the wild at night."</p><p></p><p>outside at night at any light your shadowsight means blinded. 5e rules establish that only exceptionally bright full moons (not just regular full moon) means darkness not dim light.</p><p></p><p>Course, that might be a push me - pull you double step rule change for your game too.</p><p></p><p>As for de facto driving out the long overland quests - so you are again installing what amounts to a very civilized setting with indoors stops to counter your rules changes a bit - ok, sure.</p><p></p><p>"There's been some talk about it. Personally, I think too much of sub-races is fluff and fine for role-playing, but not needed for game mechanics generally. We will definitely discuss it in our group later today. If the consensus is to keep subraces, I just have to find a way to balance the additional abilities out with other races."</p><p></p><p>I ask what do your players think after you said many players liked sub-races. You respond with vague references to there having been talks and then reiterate your views - no mention of theirs. </p><p></p><p>That is quite illustrative that when directly asked what your players likes were on a specific subject you did not think it important to say what theirs were and reiterate your own views?</p><p></p><p>As for the follow-up discussion with the damaclesean "or find a way to balance" add-on consequence, sounds it could be seen as a "do you want to accept the proposal i like or do you want me to scrap that and instead do something else to get to what i want?" </p><p></p><p>the best suggestion i can give you is to spend much more effort and time in your twixt-campaign redux asking your players what they want and tweaking the setting and campaign and so on to better fit their (and your) actual in-play likes rather than the quest for the "regardless of " (setting, class etc) on-paper ideal of balance. the prey you are stalking does not taste as good as the ones you are dismissing and is a lot less filling.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7541868, member: 6919838"] [MENTION=6976296]James Grover[/MENTION] "While I understand your concerns about the encumbrace penalty to Gnome and Halfling races, it simply should have been there from the start IMO. Both races weigh, on average 40 lbs according to RAW. It is ludicous to think of a 40 lb character with even a Str 10 carrying around 150 lbs or more (depending on variant use or not) without penalty. That would be like a 200-lb human carrying 500 lbs! I know this is a fantasy game, but that is completely unrealistic without magic. Likewise, that same Small character can jump just as far as a Medium one with the same Strength score... again, not quite right IMO." Actually you seem to have a totally different thought about what strength (the score) is. In 5e strength (the score) is not a multiplier based on your weight, but an objective measure of your character's muscle power - not by any means necessarily tied to muscle mass or the percentage of muscle to non-muscle overall weight. This is a magical world, not a reality one - so it is perfectly within the realm of fantasy to have gnomes and halflings etc. be "by dint of their origins and the will of the gods which forged them, these races are smaller but sturdy and stronger than they look." Even in our own world, animal experts and even pop-tv types will point out that while primates like chimps are smaller than us, their ratio of muscle to total weight is higher - so applying our "human-size" expectations is going to turn out badly - and last i checked chimps were not magical races. *if* one makes it so that in their world it makes more sense for the changes you see - Is it more "making sense" then that the small race can carry only a fraction of the usual amount but can still hit as hard with the same strength-based axe? Or have the same chance at forcing a door as a same strength human? Succeed at a grapple check vs a larger guy? But hey, lets not let flavor dull that razor of balance cutting away that which cant be tabulated. For my games, if you want to play a weak halfling to reflect your size, i just say "then choose a low strength" and we all treat strength score as an objective score, not a "fluid maybe means this but maybe means that" thing. "Now, I already planned on having "Small-size" heavier items, such as Heavy Armors, etc. with lighter weight. A Small-sized Breastplate would not weigh the same as a Medium one. I understand 5E wants simplicity, but it can go too far." And here we go... one general hallmark of a "less than wonderful house rule to me is when you have to immediately change other things to reverse some of the complications." if you have to go "three steps left and two steps forward and one step back and four steps right" to get to "a step ahead and a step right" you are probably on the wrong path. What about food? What about drink? A week's worth of rations weighs 14lbs and a full waterskin weighs 5 lbs so my strength 8 gnome has lost about half his carry capacity right there. You gonna adjust weights for those too? there is a reason that the *small and medium" size categories in 5e were chosen to treat carry and equipment measures for individual items and character capacity the same. But, if you are dead set and determined, instead of flat scores, consider using the variant of the goliath and firbolg features which simp,y says "treat this creature as tiny for carrying" as that starts your full redux using already existing mechanics for size differences instead of re-inventing the wheel. me? i just treat small as not just being "size" and mass. "So, you are only interested in Wood-elf Druids or Drow Paladins? You can still play any class with an Int-only ASI. Also, the Dex +2 is still more than viable for Rogue, Rangers, and other classes. " I have no idea where you got this from. I am interested in wood-elves whose scores and strengths reflect a long time living in the woods - not towers of magic and so forth. I like having a race defined as coming from lifetime in the woods getting a boost to the ability that reflects aptitude with tasks like interacting with and influencing or controlling animals, finding and foraging for food and water in the wild, follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide your group through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards. "Shadowsight isn't pointless as I see it. If you could expand on your point please do and let me know why you think it is. Shadowsight is not replacing Darkvision for many "commonly underground" monsters. And what can I say, I like the idea of players resting more in towns than in the wild at night." outside at night at any light your shadowsight means blinded. 5e rules establish that only exceptionally bright full moons (not just regular full moon) means darkness not dim light. Course, that might be a push me - pull you double step rule change for your game too. As for de facto driving out the long overland quests - so you are again installing what amounts to a very civilized setting with indoors stops to counter your rules changes a bit - ok, sure. "There's been some talk about it. Personally, I think too much of sub-races is fluff and fine for role-playing, but not needed for game mechanics generally. We will definitely discuss it in our group later today. If the consensus is to keep subraces, I just have to find a way to balance the additional abilities out with other races." I ask what do your players think after you said many players liked sub-races. You respond with vague references to there having been talks and then reiterate your views - no mention of theirs. That is quite illustrative that when directly asked what your players likes were on a specific subject you did not think it important to say what theirs were and reiterate your own views? As for the follow-up discussion with the damaclesean "or find a way to balance" add-on consequence, sounds it could be seen as a "do you want to accept the proposal i like or do you want me to scrap that and instead do something else to get to what i want?" the best suggestion i can give you is to spend much more effort and time in your twixt-campaign redux asking your players what they want and tweaking the setting and campaign and so on to better fit their (and your) actual in-play likes rather than the quest for the "regardless of " (setting, class etc) on-paper ideal of balance. the prey you are stalking does not taste as good as the ones you are dismissing and is a lot less filling. [/QUOTE]
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