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<blockquote data-quote="swrushing" data-source="post: 2747880" data-attributes="member: 14140"></blockquote>and I and perhaps others do not believe that one can eliminate &quot;unacceptable results&quot; entirely from a system There is no perfect system in my world.people who believe there is a perfect system, and believe they are playing it, probably don't fudge. Actually, i think its not &quot;what results are unacceptable&quot; but &quot;are there unacceptable results&quot;. the pro-fudgers think &quot;sometimes the system won't do right and i will need to fix it in the most serious cases.&quot;the anit-fudgers seem to think &quot;i can live with whatever results come up&quot; and so see no reason to fudge.&quot;its not about the specifics of &quot;what results&quot; but the broader question of &quot;are there any unacceptable results?&quot;at least, as i see it. YMMVif you have the time and patience and the willingness to endure such a search, sure. But, and i say this again, the closer to perfection you try and get, the more and more and more work you need. trying to pre-list every concievable point at which i will fudge so that i will agree that &quot;i wont fudge any other times&quot; is to me a waste of effort.its much more productive for me to decide &quot;i will fudge&quot;, let my players know that, and then spend that time on the fun parts like plot, story and such.or if it is not a simple or short list, it might be more work than useful to try and predetermine.i call that the obvious complexity of a rich and varied game. So where is fudging a user error then if the Gm tells players before hand?well, i have ad hoc told players to reroll or even to &quot;ignore the dice&quot; on a couple of occasions.I would not adopt a general unfettered &quot;players change their rolls&quot; as you suggest and its primarily because the perspectives and roles of the Gms and players are very different. its my job to &quot;run the game&quot; and its their join to &quot;play their characters&quot; and during play that puts us at very different viewpoints.&nbsp; I don't let them&nbsp; &quot;pick your adversaries&quot; or &quot;tell me the layout of the next room&quot; or &quot;decide is there a trap ahead&quot; unfettered either. that said, i usually, almost always now, do allow them drama points or plot points which do allow them a limited ability to do those things, adjusting rolls before they are made, adjusting them after, etc. The dramatic editing capability, for example in the Serenity rpg, even comes close to or all the way to allowing the scene edits i mention above.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="swrushing, post: 2747880, member: 14140"] [/QUOTE] and I and perhaps others do not believe that one can eliminate "unacceptable results" entirely from a system There is no perfect system in my world. people who believe there is a perfect system, and believe they are playing it, probably don't fudge. Actually, i think its not "what results are unacceptable" but "are there unacceptable results". the pro-fudgers think "sometimes the system won't do right and i will need to fix it in the most serious cases." the anit-fudgers seem to think "i can live with whatever results come up" and so see no reason to fudge. "its not about the specifics of "what results" but the broader question of "are there any unacceptable results?" at least, as i see it. YMMV if you have the time and patience and the willingness to endure such a search, sure. But, and i say this again, the closer to perfection you try and get, the more and more and more work you need. trying to pre-list every concievable point at which i will fudge so that i will agree that "i wont fudge any other times" is to me a waste of effort. its much more productive for me to decide "i will fudge", let my players know that, and then spend that time on the fun parts like plot, story and such. or if it is not a simple or short list, it might be more work than useful to try and predetermine. i call that the obvious complexity of a rich and varied game. So where is fudging a user error then if the Gm tells players before hand? well, i have ad hoc told players to reroll or even to "ignore the dice" on a couple of occasions. I would not adopt a general unfettered "players change their rolls" as you suggest and its primarily because the perspectives and roles of the Gms and players are very different. its my job to "run the game" and its their join to "play their characters" and during play that puts us at very different viewpoints. I don't let them "pick your adversaries" or "tell me the layout of the next room" or "decide is there a trap ahead" unfettered either. that said, i usually, almost always now, do allow them drama points or plot points which do allow them a limited ability to do those things, adjusting rolls before they are made, adjusting them after, etc. The dramatic editing capability, for example in the Serenity rpg, even comes close to or all the way to allowing the scene edits i mention above. [/QUOTE]

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