Balancing XP of a 3-Way Encounter

[Quickleaf]

I'm planning for an upcoming game where the party will probably end up in an encounter where there are 3 sides they can choose to ally with (pretty much evenly matched XP wise). How the heck do I deal with balancing XP in an encounter like this? What if PCs decide to ally with none of them? How do I account for fighting between three groups?


The setup is that there's a magic crown which will, when worn, reveals to a ruler which of their vassal lords are loyal and which are discontent.

Party A (Prince's representatives) want it so the Prince can assassinate/blackmail political opposition.

Party B (sacristan) wants it because he considers it a holy relic; note that he starts off working with Party A but they have a fallling out once Party A's true agenda is exposed.

Party C (fey) wants it because the patron of the fey is an ally of the Prince plotting betrayal, and doesn't want to be found out. Also she is a fey supremacist and wants the kingdom under eladrin rule, so capturing the "human crown" has a poetic vengeance in her mind.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I did something similar, but with only 2 sides. For it, I basically had 1/2 of each team attacking the players, and 1/2 attacking the other side. Beforehand, I figured out each enemy's DPR (average damage x hit % against average enemy AC), and they automatically applied it to one non-PC opponent - except for minions, who died on a 11+. I gave the PCs 1/2 XP for all the opponents involved, whether the PCs fought them or not. There was not, however, a chance to ally with either side.

Yours obviously isn't that simple.

My suggestions are to:

- make each of the sides largely minions, with only 1 or 2 non-minions (the major NPCs) per side. With so many factions, you want to keep the NPCs as simple as possible - only 2-3 monster types per faction. Choose ones with simple powers - powers that apply boosts may be difficult to track.

- try not to have more that 1/3-1/2 of the enemies attacking the PCs at any given time.

- have the minions kill each other as thematically appropriate, or make attacks versus the PCs.

- have the non-minion baddies focus on each other (using my DPR method above), or simply be able to automatically kill one minion a turn. With so many minions around, avoid burst/blast attacks.

- don't have everyone start at once - it will make the first rounds too difficult to track, and make area effect powers too powerful. Rather, have each side come on in 3-4 groups.

- plan both for having the PCs allying with one faction, or for not allying. Make the factions relatively equal, so there isn't a significant power benefit for allying with one over the other - or you can make the most evil the most powerful if you want to increase tension and encourage allying (though that may take away from the "mexican standoff" fell). If they do ally, make the other factions focus on them more. If they don't, have the sides largely (but not completely) ignore them if they aren't attacking that side.

- have the encounter be objective focused. Have the other factions ally against whoever currently has the objective. So, if the PCs don't ally and use the lack of attention to grab the objective, they will suddenly have all 3 factions gunning for them.

- allow the use of bluff/insight/diplomacy/intimidation as minor actions to redirect the focus of the minions.

- I would give the PCs about 1/3 XP for the foes, but it will really depend on how much attention you imagine them attracting.

 

[Quickleaf]

My suggestions are to:

Awesome. Thanks Dr.

- make each of the sides largely minions, with only 1 or 2 non-minions (the major NPCs) per side.

Check, I was thinking the same thing.

- try not to have more that 1/3-1/2 of the enemies attacking the PCs at any given time.

Yeah, I'm thinking that ratio will depend on whether PCs ally (if not, 1/3, if they do 1/2).

- don't have everyone start at once - it will make the first rounds too difficult to track, and make area effect powers too powerful. Rather, have each side come on in 3-4 groups.

Solid advice, but that makes the allying aspect a bit harder to run. Hmm, maybe all parties are there for role-playing before combat, but then when combat starts, Party C (the fey) vanish for a round to gather allies.

- plan both for having the PCs allying with one faction, or for not allying. Make the factions relatively equal, so there isn't a significant power benefit for allying with one over the other - or you can make the most evil the most powerful if you want to increase tension and encourage allying (though that may take away from the "mexican standoff" fell). If they do ally, make the other factions focus on them more. If they don't, have the sides largely (but not completely) ignore them if they aren't attacking that side.

I was thinking it might be possible to abstract the infighting rather than wasting time rolling for NPCs to hit NPCS. Sort of a hazard which deals auto-damage (your DPR model is great) to enemies under certain conditions, maybe have a lesser version of it if the PCs ally?

- allow the use of bluff/insight/diplomacy/intimidation as minor actions to redirect the focus of the minions.

Great idea, thanks! You just gave me some thoughts about integrating social skills into the "DPR" hazard I mentioned.

I would give the PCs about 1/3 XP for the foes, but it will really depend on how much attention you imagine them attracting.

Hmm, one-third seems about right. Thanks Dr.!

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Glad my post was helpful.

Yeah, I'm thinking that ratio will depend on whether PCs ally (if not, 1/3, if they do 1/2).

Well, I would have 1/2 directed at that faction if they ally - so it may result in fewer attacks overall versus the players if they ally. That said, if players are hammering one of the factions, that faction will focus on the players over other factions or the players' allies.

Solid advice, but that makes the allying aspect a bit harder to run. Hmm, maybe all parties are there for role-playing before combat, but then when combat starts, Party C (the fey) vanish for a round to gather allies.

Well, it may or may not be possible. One way of it is to think of the geography - perhaps its a big room with 4 doors, each faction coming in through a door. At the beginning, just the faction head and a few minions (and maybe their head crony) would be in the room to start. This also allows the factions/players to have some Role Play time time screaming at each other/building tension before everything explodes. It also allows you to keep the size of the factions hidden (and therefore allows NPC bluff/intimidates to up or downplay the size of their force) - which allows you to drop hints/misinformation in the run up to the encounter.

Or, if you don't want the size of the sides hidden, you could simply have geography dictate the sides coming in over a number of turns. For example, if it is at the top of the hill/bottom of an ampetheatre, the difficult terrain would have caused the factions to spread out and come in over a few rounds. Additionally, depending on the terrain, it might allow players to use athletics checks, etc. to delay/damage (delay is better from a book keeping perspective - perhaps a successful check means only 1/2 come in the next round, the other 1/2 delayed by 1 round) the reinforcements, by causing a rock slide or whatever might be thematically appropriate.

You could also combine the approaches - say one faction came out of a tunnel, the others had to climb there.

I was thinking it might be possible to abstract the infighting rather than wasting time rolling for NPCs to hit NPCS. Sort of a hazard which deals auto-damage (your DPR model is great) to enemies under certain conditions, maybe have a lesser version of it if the PCs ally?

I definitely agree - only make rolls versus the player - abstract everything else. Vs. minions, you do need to either make a roll (as DPR would automatically kill them) or simply only kill every other minion DPR is applied to.

That said, I would do the DPR on a model-by-model basis - so if a model were attacking another model, you would just automatically apply the DPR. Personally, although it is much simpler, I would avoid any "all NPCs simply take x damage a round" as being a bit too abstract - rather, they should take damage based on how much they are being focused on.

Incidentally, if you want the main NPCs to not be overly abraided by the DPR and be in better shape when the players get to them, consider giving them a way to trigger their healing surge - this may be less necessary if you make them elites or solos.

I think the important thing is a to have a solid ruleset in place to govern how the NPCs interact, but not make that ruleset be visible to the players, so as to make the encounter seem natural and organic to them but actually have a rigid structure. From my past GMing experience (mostly Shadowrun 2nd ed.), the more chaotic you want the situation to feel for the players, the more rigid it actually needs to be constructed by the GM to avoid things from bogging down.


Anyway, I'm glad this is all helpful - feel free to press the "give XP" button on my profile.


Incidentally, if you are curious as to the encounter I ran and which I developed the DPR method for, it was 2 hated enemies who had killed each other fighting in a war long ago. The party walked into the battlefield with a powerful artifact, and this gave the 2 ghosts enough magical mojo to continue their war, with the party caught in the middle (each side thinking the party belonged to the other side). Each turn each ghost would "raise" a bunch of skeletons to fight on its side (1 minion and 1 non-minion a turn). When the players killed a ghost, that would kill all of its faction and stop the raising of new forces, but also had the remaining ghost and its faction free to all attack the players. Killing the second ghost ended the encounter.

Unfortunately, I was a relatively new to DMing D&D at that time (players had just reached 3rd level), and it didn't occur to me to allow the players to use skills to shape the encounter - religion, insight, bluff and diplomacy all could have had interesting effects. Oh well, perhaps I can give it a different spin and try something similar later. Additionally, were it to happen again, I would have raised fewer non-minions and more minions.